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AlvinofDiaspar

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The amount of event space there is crazy. I'd like to know if an option was floated of burrowing the line and having the station aligned north/south more central to the Ex grounds. Makes a less optimal transfer for GO-subway riders sure, but vastly improves station access to people attending shows, concerts, games, etc. Current plans it's approaching 1km to Budweiser stage....pretty far. I guess we'll never know since the Prov keeps things under wraps, but am curious if a perpendicular Ex station was looked at.

It would be pretty tough to do without going underground/deviating majorly from the rail corridor.

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TossYourJacket

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The amount of event space there is crazy. I'd like to know if an option was floated of burrowing the line and having the station aligned north/south more central to the Ex grounds. Makes a less optimal transfer for GO-subway riders sure, but vastly improves station access to people attending shows, concerts, games, etc. Current plans it's approaching 1km to Budweiser stage....pretty far. I guess we'll never know since the Prov keeps things under wraps, but am curious if a perpendicular Ex station was looked at.
My guess on that is it would be worse for a western extension if aligned that way. If it was permanently going to be the western terminus, then I'd say they should have done exactly what you're suggesting, but when you factor in tail tracks and things, aligning the station that way may have made it virtually impossible to extend it further without running it into the lake. So that probably eliminated any idea of a N-S alignment for that station.
 

AlvinofDiaspar

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My guess on that is it would be worse for a western extension if aligned that way. If it was permanently going to be the western terminus, then I'd say they should have done exactly what you're suggesting, but when you factor in tail tracks and things, aligning the station that way may have made it virtually impossible to extend it further without running it into the lake. So that probably eliminated any idea of a N-S alignment for that station.

You can have split terminus - and even easier if you made it into a T-junction (that way you can have pass-through, semi-regular stop (though travel direction will reverse, but it's automated anyways) and trains that terminate and reverse at that stop).

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CharmAlarm

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In case anyone is interested, Steve Munro provides a summary of his speaking notes and presentation deck for a webinar on the Ontario Line. Good overview:

 

44 North

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You can have split terminus - and even easier if you made it into a T-junction (that way you can have pass-through, semi-regular stop (though travel direction will reverse, but it's automated anyways) and trains that terminate and reverse at that stop).

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Exactly. Flyunders from each direction, and it becomes an inline stop no different than any other from a service standpoint. Want to make it a tad more complicated with future skip stop services and trains mainlining past this wye junction, doable to. But in my mind it would be a currently planned terminus, and eventual inline stop. Stuff like this why I advocate narrower and shorter cars with 3rd rail. More flexibility in an urban environment.
 

AlvinofDiaspar

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In case anyone is interested, Steve Munro provides a summary of his speaking notes and presentation deck for a webinar on the Ontario Line. Good overview:


I think this section (from said blog) is new?

ol_queenyonge_cutawayview_202112.jpg


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turini2

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I think this section (from said blog) is new?

ol_queenyonge_cutawayview_202112.jpg


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That's a LOT of escalators. And I really wish that the US/Canada would stop with their requirement for full height mezzanine concourses! Why can other major projects (like Crossrail) have escalators that reach platform level without needing an extra step! (example shown in red arrow). Massively increases costs for no benefit for passengers - if anything, it increases the journey time to the platform...

Screenshot 2022-02-02 at 14.07.19.png
 

innsertnamehere

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so 5-6 escalators to get to platform level, basically. I hope those elevators are high capacity, they are going to be seeing a lot more use than normal.

Even the deepest TTC stations currently don't have more than, what, 2 escalators /stairs to get to grade, even if one of the escalators is quite long? Stations like Lawrence have long singular escalators to a concourse just below grade then a small stair to grade, while Don Mills is the other deep station that comes to mind and that's a short escalator to the concourse then a long escalator to grade.
 

TossYourJacket

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so 5-6 escalators to get to platform level, basically. I hope those elevators are high capacity, they are going to be seeing a lot more use than normal.

Even the deepest TTC stations currently don't have more than, what, 2 escalators /stairs to get to grade, even if one of the escalators is quite long? Stations like Lawrence have long singular escalators to a concourse just below grade then a small stair to grade, while Don Mills is the other deep station that comes to mind and that's a short escalator to the concourse then a long escalator to grade.
I think some of the Crosstown stations are supposed to be pretty bad in terms of numbers of escalators down to the platform. Seems like it's how Metrolinx prefers to design stations, for whatever reason.
 

W. K. Lis

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I don't think it's necessary for the Ontario Line to have an interchange with every single GO line. As it is, Union and Lansdowne/Bloor aren't too far away, and it becomes more of a last-mile solution. And since it doesn't look like any two GO lines will stop at the same place west of Union, we might as well interchange with the line that has both the highest ridership and the most development potential.

I'm also hopeful that by the time the Ontario Line is completed, there are already plans in place to make Ontario Place a destination once again.
Forgetting about the King-Liberty Station.

From link.

1643818383565.png

1643818411179.png
 

TOareaFan

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That's a LOT of escalators. And I really wish that the US/Canada would stop with their requirement for full height mezzanine concourses! Why can other major projects (like Crossrail) have escalators that reach platform level without needing an extra step! (example shown in red arrow). Massively increases costs for no benefit for passengers - if anything, it increases the journey time to the platform...
There is one kinda obvious advantage....escalators need maintenance and sometimes break.....having them split allows that to be done in stages and allows for better passenger experience while the work is being done.
 

John Bisan

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That's a LOT of escalators. And I really wish that the US/Canada would stop with their requirement for full height mezzanine concourses! Why can other major projects (like Crossrail) have escalators that reach platform level without needing an extra step! (example shown in red arrow). Massively increases costs for no benefit for passengers - if anything, it increases the journey time to the platform...

View attachment 378091
this is actually on of OBC requirement for escalators not to exceed 12.0m without getting special approval, maximum you can see in Canada is around 13-15m so you have to split it.
 

blacksquirrels

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You're ignoring that Exhibition Station has other attractions at it beside Ontario Place. BMO Field in particular (and the CNE when it occurs), That gives it value as a subway station beyond just Ontario Place, especially when it is extended westward. Also given the ridership of Lakeshore West, that is the most valuable line to connect to in the West. Kitchener/Barrie lines will connect to the 504 at Liberty Village anyway and people can switch to the OL from there at King and Bathurst if they choose to. Yes that's an additional transfer but the connection is still there (or they can take the 504, along it's priority corridor further down King). To connect the OL to the Barrie./Kitchener lines you'd have had to move Liberty Village GO substantially to the east, which means it would be far more redundant with Exhibition/Spadina GO stations, and would also reduce service to people in neighbourhoods like Parkdale who will see more benefit from a station at King/Atlantic than they would at the base of Tecumseh. Plus given the western extension is still to come, and is yet undefined, if the OL turns north, it can always connect to the other GO lines as it travels that way.

Personally, I wouldn't have minded a station under the Ordinance Triangle, since the tunnel passes under it, but the lack of one isn't a disaster, and much like the lack of a station at Cherry, it probably just comes down to tunnel geometry not working to locate a station there, as both of these are locations where the station is heading towards a surface portal, which means either you have to move the portal (which there may not be space to do) or you have to build a station that is literally on an incline, which is insane. So I get why those stations didn't happen, even if in an ideal world they existed.

Excellent points. I agree that the it all really depends on the where the Ontario Line extends west of Exhibition.
 

turini2

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There is one kinda obvious advantage....escalators need maintenance and sometimes break.....having them split allows that to be done in stages and allows for better passenger experience while the work is being done.
More escalators mean more cost to purchase, install and maintain them in the long run. Better to have 3 longer escalators all the way down than 2 to an intermediate level and 2 more to platform level.
this is actually on of OBC requirement for escalators not to exceed 12.0m without getting special approval, maximum you can see in Canada is around 13-15m so you have to split it.
Sigh OBC. When up to 20m escalators is common, and up to 40m is possible.

I imagine this is what someone bringing ideas to TTC/Metrolinx to save costs hears from them - excuses on why it can't be done, when it can! There's a reason that North American transit costs are so high...
 

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