Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

[Midtown Urbanist]

Ok I'll repeat myself until it sinks in. THERE IS NO NEED FOR A DRL NORTH OF BLOOR WHEN SMARTTRACK IS BEING IMPLEMENTED.

If we bring the Relief Line to just Pape, then the Yonge Subway in 2031 will be as crowded (read: overcrowded) as today.

Neither SmartTrack (equivalent to RER+ on above graph) or the "Relief Line U" will relieve the Yonge subway as well as the "Relief Line LONG" to Sheppard.

The LONG option intercepts busy bus routes along Sheppard, York Mills/Ellesmere, Lawrence, as well as the Eglinton Crosstown when complete. According to the TTC 2014 Surface Route report, the daily ridership for these lines are as follows (in above order): 29,000, 27,500, 33,700, 28,100, or 118,300 total. (And this is not even including other routes like the 100 Flemingdon, 51 Leslie, 56 Leaside, and 25 Don Mills (38,000 on that route) that also operate east of Yonge. )

Bringing the Relief Line up to Sheppard is critical. More so than any other transit project after the Relief Line to Pape Station.

 

[M II A II R II K]

It should at least go to Line 5 in the east.

 

[Filip]

Great, so why is ST happening then? Cancel the lot and put it into DRL W. There's too many city-owned lines in the northeast while the rest of the city gets stuck with what it has.

 

[sixrings]

I pretty much believe you have to go with the LONG approach since I also believe that this thing wont be operational until post 2030.

 

[sixrings]

Great, so why is ST happening then? Cancel the lot and put it into DRL W. There's too many city-owned lines in the northeast while the rest of the city gets stuck with what it has.

Because it was a SMART way to win an election... THE END.

 

[Rainforest]

A subway relief line is needed in the east, even if SmartTrack is in place. And, it needs to continue north of Bloor, at least to Eglinton, and perhaps all the way to Sheppard.

In the west, only one new line is needed. If SmartTrack is going up to Bloor, Eglinton, or beyond it, there is no need for the western leg of DRL.

Spadina line already works as a western relief line to some degree.

If you read the lates SmartTrack ridership forecast, the morning peak-point ridership forecast for the most user-friendly scenario (5 min frequency + TTC fare) is 20,800 pphpd from the east (at Gerrard), but only 11,500 from the west.

 

[Filip]

Let's not try and pretend ST got Tory elected. He was the boring 'safe' solution after the Ford years.

If he's already cutting ST apart, and essentially declaring it is part of RER, with no distinct branding, then we can consider the project itself dead. Reprioritize ST funds to get some proper transit in the west end of the city. We all know DRL won't happen until the 2030s, even 2040s. GO RER will take a lot of pressure off all subway lines.

 

[sixrings]

Let's not try and pretend ST got Tory elected. He was the boring 'safe' solution after the Ford years.

If he's already cutting ST apart, and essentially declaring it is part of RER, with no distinct branding, then we can consider the project itself dead. Reprioritize ST funds to get some proper transit in the west end of the city. We all know DRL won't happen until the 2030s, even 2040s. GO RER will take a lot of pressure off all subway lines.

I voted for Tory for the reasons you say but there was some people voting for him because he was offering a cheap and quick way to implement transit. Desperate people will believe anything.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

If he's already cutting ST apart, and essentially declaring it is part of RER, with no distinct branding, then we can consider the project itself dead. Reprioritize ST funds to get some proper transit in the west end of the city. We all know DRL won't happen until the 2030s, even 2040s. GO RER will take a lot of pressure off all subway lines.

What you describe is exactly what has happened with Crosstown West. The West is getting Crosstown West, Finch West LRT, Spadina Extension.

 

[nfitz]

And I will continue to vociferously oppose it, because I am sick and tired of multi-billion dollar projects being kicked around for one particular piece of the city, while my $15MM loop keeps getting pushed out due to budgets and I have to wait 15 mins in morning traffic to get from Park Lawn to the Humber River, because fuck you - Scarborough, or Weston, that's why.

So we should spend $billions to make you happy, because you keep electing incompetent councillors in Etobicrack.

How utterly self-centred!

 

[salsa]

I applaud your intelligent contribution to this discussion. Have a cookie.

And I applaud yours. I'm sure @ShonTron will agree.

I have to wait 15 mins in morning traffic to get from Park Lawn to the Humber River, because fuck you - Scarborough, or Weston

this city has gone fucking nuts lately

a fucking tunneled subway down Don Mills (lmfao)

You started this discussion by trashing the DRL unless it goes to your side of town. You asked for facts and proof that ST and DRL to Sheppard are both needed. Several people came forward with exactly that, and all you did was dismiss it and go off on a big rant without providing any of your own proof to support your opinion. Unsurprisingly, you haven't convinced anyone to believe you. But feel free to repeat yourself another 10 times, I'm sure that will work!

 

[nfitz]

Subways, subways, subways, ... said the politicians from Etobicoke.

 

[MisterF]

You said it yourself! If the business case is Yonge relief then there is no case to extend the line west. My point being, there is no reasonable timeframe to build the eastern component let alone the western. Hey, the folks who were expecting the BD west extension for the last 30 years would like to say hi!

ST should be providing the Yonge relief from the northeast, not a multi billion dollar subway that would be better utilized to run east west under downtown and connect the two ends of our other east west subway line. I can't believe that I'm the subway fanboy advocating for a surface route, but the relief line was never ever meant to run up to Sheppard. It was meant as a local relief line to the downtown streetcar network which hasn't been able to breathe normally since I came to Canada.

The Queen subway that was proposed many decades ago was intended to relieve streetcars. The DRL that was conceived in the 1980s was intended to relieve Lines 1 and 2 and would have done very little to relieve streetcars. The currently proposed relief line can do both, it doesn't have to be one or the other. As others have pointed out, Smartrack/RER wouldn't relieve Line 1 nearly as well as the RL going as far north as Sheppard. It also wouldn't serve dense neighbourhoods like Thorncliffe, Flemingdon, Pape Village, etc. As for BD extension, the line has been extended several times over the decades and any future extensions would be through suburban tract housing that you yourself argue subways shouldn't serve. Completely different context from future RL extensions through downtown west.

As I said, opposition to the entire RL just because your neighbourhood won't be served just ensures that your neighbourhood will never be served. You're basically saying that because you won't benefit first, that nobody should benefit ever. SMH.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

What you describe is exactly what has happened with Crosstown West. The West is getting Crosstown West, Finch West LRT, Spadina Extension.

All that is lacking from that picture is the WWLRT. Which again, should have been approved yesteryear.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

If we bring the Relief Line to just Pape, then the Yonge Subway in 2031 will be as crowded (read: overcrowded) as today.

Neither SmartTrack (equivalent to RER+ on above graph) or the "Relief Line U" will relieve the Yonge subway as well as the "Relief Line LONG" to Sheppard.

The LONG option intercepts busy bus routes along Sheppard, York Mills/Ellesmere, Lawrence, as well as the Eglinton Crosstown when complete. According to the TTC 2014 Surface Route report, the daily ridership for these lines are as follows (in above order): 29,000, 27,500, 33,700, 28,100, or 118,300 total. (And this is not even including other routes like the 100 Flemingdon, 51 Leslie, 56 Leaside, and 25 Don Mills (38,000 on that route) that also operate east of Yonge. )

Bringing the Relief Line up to Sheppard is critical. More so than any other transit project after the Relief Line to Pape Station.

Here is another piece of critical information that came out in the recent SmartTrack studies.

The YRNS study used 32,300 as the base case for Yonge 2031 ridership. (37,800 without Spadina Subway and GO-RER)

The SmartTrack studies used a different population and ridership growth model provided by University of Toronto. They determined that the base case for the Yonge Subway south of Bloor in 2031 as 38,750, and 41,700 in 2041:

The YRNS study says that the Yonge Line's capacity in 2031 will be 36,000, so without the Relief Line, the University of Toronto + City Planning led study suggests that the Yonge subway will be significantly over-capacity in 2031.

Further, SmartTrack at 15 minute headways (the most likely option) does very little to relieve the Yonge Subway. The 5 minute headway option (highly unlikely, and probably as costly as building the Relief Line to Sheppard anyway) does not relieve the Yonge Subway anywhere near the levels of the Relief Line to Sheppard.