Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

[kEiThZ]

@nfitz

Fair point. I think we're all waiting see more detailed design on Smart Track. I would submit that the jury is still out on whether they can shoehorn more rail in those corridors.

But I also think it's rather overly optimistic to expect that an $8 billion DRL to Sheppard (with no Western component outside downtown) will be up and running in the next 15 years. That's quite the political challenge. Starting from the perception of residents in the Western half of the city, right out to the price tag for this single transit line. This is why I anticipate a much smaller DRL.

That's why I'd rather not toss out the baby with the bathwater on ST. If you're sitting at Vic Park and Finch, ST with even 15 min service in a decade looks more promising than a DRL to anywhere near you in two decades.

 

[nfitz]

But I also think it's rather overly optimistic to expect that an $8 billion DRL to Sheppard (with no Western component outside downtown) will be up and running in the next 15 years. That's quite the political challenge.

Absolutely. But Phase 1 is only 4 km as the crow flies from Pape station to Queen station (probably closer to 5 km, once you build it). The remaining 12 km from Pape to Sheppard is secondary (though

That's why I'd rather not toss out the baby with the bathwater on ST. If you're sitting at Vic Park and Finch, ST with even 15 min service in a decade looks more promising than a DRL to anywhere near you in two decades.

We know that every 5 minute SmartTrack is not feasible (without a lot of tunnelling at least). We can see that with service every 15 minutes, there is little relief on Bloor-Yonge station (even every 5 minutes does not actually provide any relief over current levels - it's still going to be higher in 2031 than it is now).

If all we get is every 15-minute SmartTrack, then we gain little beyond what Metrolinx has already promised and fully-funded for the electrified GO RER service - in fact someone at VP/Finch would be better off taking that from the exising Agincourt GO station, rather than on the SmartTrack which will add another 6 stops to downtown.

There's little point the city spending $billions on SmartTrack if they can't get much better than every 15 minutes off-peak.

 

[salsa]

The website has a trip planner showing the travel time benefits the Relief Line will offer around the city. Check it out: http://www.relieflinealliance.ca

Lets hope this trip planner is more trustworthy than the one created by the Tory campaign:

http://smarttracker.ca/

 

[georgevicbell]

If we are building 5 km express subway lines without any stations...we should go in for four of them...

1. Scarborough Subway! (Fords Express Line)
2. Sheperd (Don Mills) to Eglinton (Don Mills) (Northern Express Line)
3. Eglinton (Don Mills) to Bloor (Pape) (Midtown Express Line)
4. Bloor (Pape) to King (Spadina) (Downtown Express Line) - with an extra station at young

Basically this is 15km of subway, with 5 stations...we put in headwalls and straight aways where we think there might eventually be stations...total cost is kept very low...we get relief on Young and we get a way faster way downtown for everyone on Bloor, Eglinton, Sheperd lines...

Design is essentially just tunnels and making sure there is enough room for future stations...it simplifies what needs to happen through the core, and would be up and running much faster than a 5 or 6 station DRL line that only goes between bloor and the core.

Additional stations can be financed by development as it occurs rather than before...

 

[Hopkins123]

^ One thing I like about how they've constructed the Crosstown thus far is that all the stations, even the non-important ones, are being incorporated along the line from Day One. As tempting as simply building just the tunnels and interchange stops might be, I think it's important to safeguard station sites from the risk of getting the axe should a more frugal or austerity minded government come into power in the future.

Willowdale and Sheppard commuters are still waiting for their infill stop to this day.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

Relief Line Alliance Raising Public Support For New Subway Line

UT article on the new group!

 

[Filip]

I will vociferously oppose a DRL without a western component. That's just another example of short changing the west, when we have severe issues with overcrowded, slow and unreliable transit.

 

[nfitz]

I will vociferously oppose a DRL without a western component. That's just another example of short changing the west, when we have severe issues with overcrowded, slow and unreliable transit.

They built a relief line in the west in the 1950s/1960s - the University line. Surely it's the east that's been short-changed all these years! I'm not sure how building a western leg of the line would relieve Yonge-Bloor.

I can see a case for extending it a couple of stops to Bathurst - but the ridership case isn't there to connect to the Bloor line.

 

[Filip]

They built a relief line in the west in the 1950s/1960s - the University line. Surely it's the east that's been short-changed all these years!

I'm just going to assume you're being facetious because a line that runs two blocks from the other line isn't really doing much relieving.

The west needs relief from shitty streetcars and congested roads. Much more than we need (another) subway to Sheppard.

 

[nfitz]

I'm just going to assume you're being facetious because a line that runs two blocks from the other line isn't really doing much relieving.

I'm just going to assume you're being being facetious because the University line provides massive relief to Yonge-Bloor station. You only have to look at what the Yonge line looks like, when there is a closure between Union station and St. George!

Look in both the existing DRL and SmartTrack ridership studies, where you can see how much lower the ridership is coming in from the west, than the east.

 

[Filip]

I'm just going to assume you're being being facetious because the University line provides massive relief to Yonge-Bloor station. You only have to look at what the Yonge line looks like, when there is a closure between Union station and St. George!

Look in both the existing DRL and SmartTrack ridership studies, where you can see how much lower the ridership is coming in from the west, than the east.

That's only if you take the line to Sheppard. Otherwise a BD to BD "U" has more ridership on the west. Not to mention much higher station usage because of the right type of density for subway construction. Maybe a fair comparison would be to take the western leg up to Weston and Rexdale?

This argument is stupid because ST will provide the northeast and northwest rapid transit. DRL should be an old Toronto line from Pape to Dundas West. It should provide local enhancements to crowding on surface routes not try to play the role of regional rail.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

I will vociferously oppose a DRL without a western component. That's just another example of short changing the west, when we have severe issues with overcrowded, slow and unreliable transit.

Look, I definitely agree that the subway needs to be extended with a western component at some point.

But as bad as it is in Humber Bay, Liberty Village, etc., they are not as crucial to the region's economy as the Yonge Subway line. The eastern component to Sheppard, as studied by Metrolinx YRNS report, will be as used as both the Yonge and Bloor-Danforth subways, and would reduce crowding on the Yonge subway by 1/3.

Once this crucial piece of transit is completed, we can and should start constructing the line west towards Sunnyside. We should be studying it the moment the funds are committed to the eastern component.

And the Relief Line does not preclude the construction of the WWLRT in the mean time, which should have been started yesterday, under any transit scenario.

 

[MisterF]

I will vociferously oppose a DRL without a western component. That's just another example of short changing the west, when we have severe issues with overcrowded, slow and unreliable transit.

All subway lines are built in phases. As the Yonge relief study showed, the DRL long has more benefits and ridership than the U option. And in the U option, the eastern half would have more ridership than the western half. Sure, in a perfect world the whole thing would be built in one shot, but we don't live in a perfect world. I agree that streetcar relief has been mistakenly absent from the justification of the relief line. But to oppose the line because the section that would personally benefit you isn't in the first phase is not only selfish but counterproductive. Once the first phase is built, future phases will come in time. But opposing the first phase will just ensure that west end relief never happens. You're letting the perfect be the enemy of the good.

People who want western relief should be supporting the RL and the King streetcar right of way proposal. That would provide some interim relief to the west end and ensure that a DRL west will happen eventually.

 

[Filip]

All subway lines are built in phases. As the Yonge relief study showed, the DRL long has more benefits and ridership than the U option. And in the U option, the eastern half would have more ridership than the western half. Sure, in a perfect world the whole thing would be built in one shot, but we don't live in a perfect world. I agree that streetcar relief has been mistakenly absent from the justification of the relief line. But to oppose the line because the section that would personally benefit you isn't in the first phase is not only selfish but counterproductive. Once the first phase is built, future phases will come in time. But opposing the first phase will just ensure that west end relief never happens. You're letting the perfect be the enemy of the good.

People who want western relief should be supporting the RL and the King streetcar right of way proposal. That would provide some interim relief to the west end and ensure that a DRL west will happen eventually.

You said it yourself! If the business case is Yonge relief then there is no case to extend the line west. My point being, there is no reasonable timeframe to build the eastern component let alone the western. Hey, the folks who were expecting the BD west extension for the last 30 years would like to say hi!

ST should be providing the Yonge relief from the northeast, not a multi billion dollar subway that would be better utilized to run east west under downtown and connect the two ends of our other east west subway line. I can't believe that I'm the subway fanboy advocating for a surface route, but the relief line was never ever meant to run up to Sheppard. It was meant as a local relief line to the downtown streetcar network which hasn't been able to breathe normally since I came to Canada.

 

[crs1026]

This argument is stupid because ST will provide the northeast and northwest rapid transit. DRL should be an old Toronto line from Pape to Dundas West. It should provide local enhancements to crowding on surface routes not try to play the role of regional rail.

ST won't be Regional rail. If ST were Regional Rail, it wouldn't stop at Liberty, Queen, or Dundas. Or St Clair. Or Weston. ST will work fine as a western relief line, if the frequency is sufficient. No reason to build a RL and ST. (RER could run both without branding the stopping as ST, for that matter - but I'm letting Mr Tory get his image in here)

I would rather see the 501/504 lines put underground than run the RL out there. The right place to begin the underground is in front of St Joe's Hospital on the Queensway. Not only does that let the track follow a natural level into the tunnel, it takes streetcars out of the Roncy-Queen-King intersection which is a mess at rush hour. Queen-Lansdowne-Jameson is another brutal intersection for congestion. If you had a portal right west of Dufferin, it could come back out in the open for a bit. Then go back underground around Shaw, where Queen is very wide.

That would enable a higher quality LRT routing right out to the Humber and beyond.

To make it affordable, just sell Roncesvalles Division and relocate it out around Kipling and Horner, where there is lots of cheaper land. Then you have an 'anchor' to push a line up Kipling to Six Points. You'd likely make a little money even after building the new barns.

It would be ironic if around 202x the Queen-King-Roncy intersection was all dug up to put in underground rail. That would be a 100-year anniversary to all those neat shots of the streetcar trackwork going in. Mike Filey would probably have a field day with that one.

- Paul