Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

[gweed123]

I'm not really in favour of having the DRL run underneath multiple transit-carrying streets. That really doesn't help eliminate intense surface transit on either of them, since the service would still need to operate because only part of it would be duplicated. Stick to either King or Queen. The only exception to this would be running on Wellington through the core, since it would be close enough to King but also still be able to easily connect to Union.

The advantage of using King over Queen is that you would intersect the Queen Streetcar at both ends, which would help alleviate the load on the inner section of the line, opening up more room for local riders. Presumably riders coming from South Etobicoke would transfer at Roncesvalles (or wherever the transfer is) instead of crawling along Queen the whole way into the CBD. You'd be effectively increasing the capacity of the Queen streetcar at the same time.

If you use Queen, the only places you intersect the King streetcar are at Broadview and at Roncesvalles, and by that point they haven't picked up much ridership, since they're just starting their routes. The Queen streetcar on the other hand has significant sections of its route that lie west of Roncesvalles and east of Broadview, which generate a significant portion of the ridership.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

I'm not really in favour of having the DRL run underneath multiple transit-carrying streets. That really doesn't help eliminate intense surface transit on either of them, since the service would still need to operate because only part of it would be duplicated. Stick to either King or Queen. The only exception to this would be running on Wellington through the core, since it would be close enough to King but also still be able to easily connect to Union.

The advantage of using King over Queen is that you would intersect the Queen Streetcar at both ends, which would help alleviate the load on the inner section of the line, opening up more room for local riders. Presumably riders coming from South Etobicoke would transfer at Roncesvalles (or wherever the transfer is) instead of crawling along Queen the whole way into the CBD. You'd be effectively increasing the capacity of the Queen streetcar at the same time.

If you use Queen, the only places you intersect the King streetcar are at Broadview and at Roncesvalles, and by that point they haven't picked up much ridership, since they're just starting their routes. The Queen streetcar on the other hand has significant sections of its route that lie west of Roncesvalles and east of Broadview, which generate a significant portion of the ridership.

Very good points.

I'm just thinking of possible alternatives, what if the Queen Streetcar traveled down Strachan Avenue and continued service along King before reaching Roncesvalles yard?

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

The advantage of using King over Queen is that you would intersect the Queen Streetcar at both ends, which would help alleviate the load on the inner section of the line, opening up more room for local riders. Presumably riders coming from South Etobicoke would transfer at Roncesvalles (or wherever the transfer is) instead of crawling along Queen the whole way into the CBD. You'd be effectively increasing the capacity of the Queen streetcar at the same time.

If you use Queen, the only places you intersect the King streetcar are at Broadview and at Roncesvalles, and by that point they haven't picked up much ridership, since they're just starting their routes. The Queen streetcar on the other hand has significant sections of its route that lie west of Roncesvalles and east of Broadview, which generate a significant portion of the ridership.

That's based on a DRL that isn't extended west yet though, eh? Couldn't you make the same argument for Queen if it was? You would intersect the 504 at Roncy and River St, and South Etobicoke 501 users could transfer at Sunnyside either way.

 

[M II A II R II K]

And in the east there could be a St. Lawrence station at Jarvis, and an Old Town station between Sherbourne and Parliament, so there could only be one station between them, and RH connection at Queen and then veer north to hit the Lakeshore line.

 

[gweed123]

Very good points.

I'm just thinking of possible alternatives, what if the Queen Streetcar traveled down Strachan Avenue and continued service along King before reaching Roncesvalles yard?

That X configuration (or sideways H, depending on how you look at it) could create a lot of transfers though. If someone is going from Queen & Bay to Queen & Lansdowne, they would need to transfer from the Queen car at the first subway station along Queen to continue their trip. Likewise for someone going from King & Jameson to King & Bay. Best to try and avoid linear transfers.

That's based on a DRL that isn't extended west yet though, eh? Couldn't you make the same argument for Queen if it was? You would intersect the 504 at Roncy and River St, and South Etobicoke 501 users could transfer at Sunnyside either way.

Not necessarily. And intersecting the 504 at Roncesvalles and River is borderline pointless, because the N-S legs on both end of that route isn't where the bulk of the ridership is coming from. Most of the 504's ridership is generated on King itself, inside of the U that the DRL would form. Thus, the Queen DRL wouldn't intercept the bulk of those riders. For the Queen streetcar, a good chunk of its ridership comes from South Etobicoke and East York, which a King DRL would intercept.

 

[Zach6668]

I'm not sure you wouldn't still want or even need surface transit along whatever short(ish) stretch of Queen or King gets a handful of subway stations, likely not as closely spaced as Yonge or Bloor stations.

 

[gweed123]

I'm not sure you wouldn't still want or even need surface transit along whatever short(ish) stretch of Queen or King gets a handful of subway stations, likely not as closely spaced as Yonge or Bloor stations.

You can cover quite a bit of ground with a few subway stations, so long as you place entrances at convenient locations along the station box. Yonge especially is pretty bad for not utilizing the expanse of the station box to its full extent. Just look at Dundas (Gould), College (Gerrard), and Wellesley (Gloucester). People don't mind walking once they're inside of stations, but they do mind walking TO the stations. And in either case, through downtown and on King West the stop spacing would actually be pretty similar to Bloor-Danforth. I honestly don't think you'd need a parallel surface route. Especially if King is chosen, it would cover virtually the entirety of King (from River to Roncesvalles).

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

You can cover quite a bit of ground with a few subway stations, so long as you place entrances at convenient locations along the station box. Yonge especially is pretty bad for not utilizing the expanse of the station box to its full extent. Just look at Dundas (Gould), College (Gerrard), and Wellesley (Gloucester). People don't mind walking once they're inside of stations, but they do mind walking TO the stations. And in either case, through downtown and on King West the stop spacing would actually be pretty similar to Bloor-Danforth. I honestly don't think you'd need a parallel surface route. Especially if King is chosen, it would cover virtually the entirety of King (from River to Roncesvalles).

Plus, Queen streetcar wouldn't be too far away for local trips.

 

[Zach6668]

Plus, Queen streetcar wouldn't be too far away for local trips.

Well, literally nobody is going to do that for a "local" trip. If the stations are spaced closely enough, then it'll be fine.

It'll be interesting to see what happens west of University. I'm pretty sure Queen could support a subway all the way to at least Roncy, but almost all of the lines we have drawn on a map have the DRL W looping back up to the north and crossing (or terminating at) Bloor. However, King really has all of the density in the downtown section, whereas I think Queen has a lot of heritage protections, though I could be inventing that part.

The problem with losing the surface transit though, is if the downtown portion of the subway ends up only being two or three stations, at least initially, it wouldn't make sense to just terminate streetcars coming from the E and W at the respective stations, rather than just continue through as is. Travel from the west side of Yonge to the east side of Yonge is a huge hassle up on streets like Eglinton already. We'd be doing that, maybe worse, in that case. But this is all just hypothetical.

I would say, keep surface transit during Phase 1, which will likely just be a station at the Yonge line, another at University, and perhaps on on Bay, and then depending on where the line gets extended west, you would figure it out from there.

 

[crs1026]

It'll be interesting to see what happens west of University. I'm pretty sure Queen could support a subway all the way to at least Roncy, but almost all of the lines we have drawn on a map have the DRL W looping back up to the north and crossing (or terminating at) Bloor.

Assuming RER or ST turn up on the West Toronto corridor, with a station to connect to the DRL, the relif line doesn't need to come west from there. But whatever transit remains on Queen and/or King should be underground west of Shaw. That would be a huge improvement for auto traffic as well as travel time for streetcar travel from south Etobicoke.

- Paul

 

[Hopkins123]

Arguably a Queen DRL could be extended all the way to Mimico. There's enough density in Swansea and Humber Bay Shores to support it. Having both GO RER/SmartTrack and the DRL route to Dundas West Stn is redundant.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

Arguably a Queen DRL could be extended all the way to Mimico. There's enough density in Swansea and Humber Bay Shores to support it. Having both GO RER/SmartTrack and the DRL route to Dundas West Stn is redundant.

Either alignment option would not alter the viability for an extension all the way to Mimico, as both the King and Queen alignments would eventually reach Sunnyside/Roncesvalles and continue from there.

 

[Hopkins123]

Okay. Point taken.

I just don't get why the 501 must remain in tact while the 504 must be converted to subway. The 504 is really four routes conglomerated into one, that's why it appears to be more heavily used than your average route. In all likelihood though, King wouldn't be half as busy as it is today were a subway routed across Queen. The built-up form of Queen Street is already very similar to the Bloor-Danforth. Queen captures all the communities north of Queen and south of Queen. King only captures south of King, which already conflicts with whatever they route through the rail corridors. With a reestablished Waterfront West LRT routing through Liberty Village the need for a subway a mere 500 metres to the north is pointless.

 

[gweed123]

Okay. Point taken.

I just don't get why the 501 must remain in tact while the 504 must be converted to subway. The 504 is really four routes conglomerated into one, that's why it appears to be more heavily used than your average route.

So is the 501 Queen. It really has 3 distinct segments, but it's amalgamated into one super route.

In all likelihood though, King wouldn't be half as busy as it is today were a subway routed across Queen.

Ditto for Queen not being half as busy if a subway were routed along King.

The built-up form of Queen Street is already very similar to the Bloor-Danforth.

And King is denser than Queen is, and getting denser.

Queen captures all the communities north of Queen and south of Queen. King only captures south of King, which already conflicts with whatever they route through the rail corridors.

King also captures north of King, which would take some of the ridership away from Queen. Both streets have two sides to them.

With a reestablished Waterfront West LRT routing through Liberty Village the need for a subway a mere 500 metres to the north is pointless.

The WWLRT wouldn't run through Liberty Village. It would run through CityPlace, and that's only if the Bremner alignment somehow gets approved. Most likely they will just extend the existing streetcar ROW westward to connect with the Queensway ROW.

 

[crs1026]

Do the ridership projections point to a need for heavy rail all the way to Mimico? Is RER not sufficient?

There is lots of potential for better LRT out that way. The 501 west of Sunnyside is badly managed and not nearly as good as it could be. But a "surface subway" - which would have to be grade separated - would not fit in that ROW or along the lakeshore. Improving the 501 would be a heck of a lot cheaper, and carry a lot of people.

- Paul