RJR123
Active Member
Yep...people will still drive everywhere.
Mississauga One Park Tower | ?m | 38s | Daniels | Kirkor
- Thread starter vistaway
- Start date
Yep...people will still drive everywhere.
ganjavih
Senior Member
This is not something unique to MCC, we just don't know how to build urban neighbourhoods anymore... whether it's Bay St., Queen's Quay or CityPlace. MCC will undoubtedly fail in the same way these neighbourhoods fail.
yyzer
Senior Member
ganjavih is correct....
Density and Urbanity are two different things...and a Skyline is something else entirely...
Mississauga is getting a skyline, and it is getting density...but urbanity? nope..
I still maintain my own definition of urbanity..."humans interacting with retail, in a pedestrian environment"....that's why Kensington Market is urban, and Cityplace is not...
MCC will not get urban until you find pedestrians interacting with retail (and by retail I mean, not just stores, but restaurants, bars, theatres, etc..as well)..the only interaction today is inside the mall, which doesn't count..
doady
Senior Member
I suppose you don't think this street in Paris is urban either?
Yeah sure but how do you know it will never happen? There are still many decades of development left in MCC.
brettrobinson
New Member
I was at MCC recently and noticed such a lack of retail in all these new buildings going up around there. There is absolutely no street annimation, intimacy, etc - just not pedestrian inviting one bit. Everything about Mississauga was designed with the car in mind - thanks Hazel. Square one is a complete eye sore surrounded by thousands and thousands of parking spaces.
Hypnotoad
Senior Member
I agree 100%. But isn't the stated policy objective of all this intensification in MCC supposed to change that? Whether or not that policy objective turns into reality is something that will take years to find out.
My biggest problem with condo intensification with ground-floor retail is that the retail that usually comes leases space is not particularly pedestrian friendly. You'll get your typical Macs stores, Pizza Pizza franchise, Quiznos outlet, Scotia or TD bank branch and maybe a Starbucks or Second Cup. What you will not get, and what is truly needed to generate foot traffic, are organic, smaller stores with public appeal. Just look at the types of stores lining the Bay Corridor (subway, bagel time, Fox's Den, TD bank etc) or City Place (Farah Foods, random coffee shop) and compare it to Bloor St in the annex or any other established corridor/neighbourhood.
I'm not saying there is anything wrong with blockbuster or starbucks, but these are not the types of retail/commercial that invite pedestrian traffic.
As for Square One, given the growing scarcity (10 years or so from now) of available land in MCC, I'd expect infill in parking lots in the area, including Square One. I see MCC in transition not nearing completion. It'll take years before there is any sense of neighbourhood feel in the area, if one ever arrives. I think rapid transit will only help the situation, however.
R
roch5220
Guest
I suppose you don't think this street in Paris is urban either?
Yeah sure but how do you know it will never happen? There are still many decades of development left in MCC.
Even the expensive part of Park ave in NYC, 60s-90s is devoid of pedestrian life, even though it is 'urban'. The fact is that there is no retail, hence, no pedestrians. I usually use Park going uptown as the street is basically like a highway if it wern't for those dam lights.
RJR123
Active Member
Exactly. All these MCC-boosters on here suggest that there are tons of pedestrians now (except, of course, within 1 km of construction sites). Show us some pics with the pedestrians, and tell us where they're heading!
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
No one's saying there's tons (except for during that festival), people are just saying there aren't "none." There's some pedestrians, but MCC is so big that until construction finishes and retail goes in, etc., they'll be an insignificant part of the landscape.
wyliepoon
Senior Member
I find convenience stores like Macs to be pretty big generators of pedestrian traffic if located at the right places (ie. near a convenient walking or bike path). People who bike or walk tend to visit convenience stores more often than those who drive (high school students without access to a car are the biggest examples).
Pizza parlours are poor pedestrian generators because of the popularity of delivery, but sandwich/coffee shops should do well at street level since they provide an alternative location outside the apartment for meeting friends and getting a good drink (especially if it's Timmies).
I don't think the problem with lack of pedestrians has anything to do with the type of retail going into the podiums. It's more of a problem of the people living upstairs unwilling to adapt to a lifestyle that involves more street activity (since many see condos more as an investment than a change in lifestyle). Once the residents start using the services downstairs in the retail units, and once they develop an acquaintance, or even a friendship, with the people who provide those services, I think the pedestrian activity will pick up.
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
People pop out of condos and offices to walk to a local Quiznos or bank, but compared to the Danforth or Queen West or wherever, no one's going to visit the area to do the same and neither group will be strolling up and down for an hour...this impacts visible pedestrian activity. Also, with the bus station behind the mall, walkers are dispersed, so you don't have big crowds of people walking along a street to get to transit, like you do all along Yonge, for example.
Observer Walt
Senior Member
New buildings going up in MCC over the past several years are not in the "tower in the park" style, as was common in the 60s and 70s. They do meet the street, and many of them are being required to have retail or restaurants at ground level. They either fully occupy their blocks, or share the block with townhouses. Yes there will be a public park, not yet built, to be located on its own block, which is a very different matter.
A bike path is very conducive to good urban living. The one along Burnhamthorpe runs for miles, separated from traffic, and I'm glad it's there. (Pardon the snarky comment, but I'm thinking many cities incl. many parts of Toronto would kill to have one like it.) A few more places to lock up bicycles would be welcome, however.
True, no denying it. But this will change as infill begins to appear on said parking lots. They will be cut down considerably, especially on the west side facing City Hall and Living Arts.
What's fascinating about the MCC area is the effort to totally transform the character of the district. Said effort will take perhaps 10 years or more, but is now well under way, and there is no turning back.
MCC's original character was set back in the 70s, when it was designed as a mall, surrounded by huge parking lots, and a couple of office towers on the fringe, admittedly pretty bleak and pedestrian-unfriendly. This was the concept of a "city centre" in the 70s. It actually predates Hazel! The plan is to turn it into a real urban centre. It's a work in progress, but the progress is already clearly there to be seen, and more is coming. It's pretty interesting to follow this process.
Transportfan
Senior Member
I suppose you don't think this street in Paris is urban either?
You may see some streetscapes like that in some cities, but they're rare--and you have to remember that such traditional cities have many thouroughfares at their disposal. MCC has only one. A downtown needs a MAIN street that has buildings that front that street. (The stretch of Hurontario that runs through the City Centre is too short to really qualify.)So despite the fact that such a setup exists in Paris, I still feel that it's paying homage to the tower in the park mindset.
drum118
Superstar
There is a non name drug store in operation in the north Capital tower with a walk-in clinic and coffee shop with a patio in construction stage.
The south tower is in the process of having a food store being stock and would guess it is a Rabbia. There is to be a cleaner also.
The city core is dead and will remain dead until you have people using the the sidewalks that you don't see today.
Maybe this 3 acres park which is too small in the first place and in the wrong location will add some street life, but not holding my breath.
Unless there some thing taking place at the library or city hall, you don't see many people walking.
Until Sq One does an infill with store and residents buildings in a long stretch that face the street, you will have no street life.
The current building are set too far back from the street edge and have parking around the base.
Even the bus terminal is in the wrong place.
The Confederation bridge over the 403 is under construction and it will bring more cars into the core once built.
All the developers for this core must change their plans to some thing like the East Bay to bring some order of street life to the core.
There will never be a Downtown or Center in this area as it stands today.
Unless you tear every thing down and start from scratch, there will never be a downtown like you find in other city or parts of Mississauga like Streetsville.
I fear Amcon development based on what I am seeing on Hurontario St as well it took them 18 months just to build their sales office on Burnhamthorpe that is still not finish in side at this time.
The south tower is in the process of having a food store being stock and would guess it is a Rabbia. There is to be a cleaner also.
The city core is dead and will remain dead until you have people using the the sidewalks that you don't see today.
Maybe this 3 acres park which is too small in the first place and in the wrong location will add some street life, but not holding my breath.
Unless there some thing taking place at the library or city hall, you don't see many people walking.
Until Sq One does an infill with store and residents buildings in a long stretch that face the street, you will have no street life.
The current building are set too far back from the street edge and have parking around the base.
Even the bus terminal is in the wrong place.
The Confederation bridge over the 403 is under construction and it will bring more cars into the core once built.
All the developers for this core must change their plans to some thing like the East Bay to bring some order of street life to the core.
There will never be a Downtown or Center in this area as it stands today.
Unless you tear every thing down and start from scratch, there will never be a downtown like you find in other city or parts of Mississauga like Streetsville.
I fear Amcon development based on what I am seeing on Hurontario St as well it took them 18 months just to build their sales office on Burnhamthorpe that is still not finish in side at this time.
RJR123
Active Member
There will also never be a lively pedestrian life because the people living in MCC are suburbanites, with cars, but they just happen to live in a condo. They will be pre-disposed to drive everywhere, rather than walk because that is what suburbanites do, and it's why they move to suburbs. If they wanted the "real deal" when it comes to city life they would move to an actual urban neighbourhood.