Nobu Residences Toronto | 156.66m | 45s | Madison Group | Teeple Architects

Bogtrotter

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UtakataNoAnnex

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...after reading that posted link, it makes me regret that Mr. MidTowner decided to work over there. Then again, I think he's much more effective there in saying the things that need to be said than here...as I am pretty sure the likes of Madison has long put UT on their /ignore list at this point.
 

neuhaus

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In the condo documents Nobu has an escape clause, so they could back out of this project if they wanted to.
The building has been designed to accommodate their hotel and restaurant, so finding another location would mean more delays for them to open their first location in Canada. It’s too bad that Nobu didn’t have any involvement in the design of the building as the execution is definitely not befitting to Nobu’s exclusive luxury high end theme (I’m guessing they are just granting them license to use the Nobu name). The Four Seasons and the Shangri-La uses curtainwall but the condo residences there are far more exclusive and upscale than here where the units are much smaller, nowhere as luxurious and very investor-driven.

Madison is definitely not the right developer for this project. They could have made a positive name for themselves by delivering what’s close to what was proposed and rendered, but they decided that profit is more important than reputation/legacy.
The saving grace here is that the area is so dense with so many buildings of similar height so close together that you won‘t see all of the unfortunate value-engineering, especially from a pedestrian scale. Let’s hope the first few floors with the preserved facades on Mercer Street would be decent (at the very least).
 

daptive

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In the condo documents Nobu has an escape clause, so they could back out of this project if they wanted to.
The building has been designed to accommodate their hotel and restaurant, so finding another location would mean more delays for them to open their first location in Canada. It’s too bad that Nobu didn’t have any involvement in the design of the building as the execution is definitely not befitting to Nobu’s exclusive luxury high end theme (I’m guessing they are just granting them license to use the Nobu name). The Four Seasons and the Shangri-La uses curtainwall but the condo residences there are far more exclusive and upscale than here where the units are much smaller, nowhere as luxurious and very investor-driven.

Madison is definitely not the right developer for this project. They could have made a positive name for themselves by delivering what’s close to what was proposed and rendered, but they decided that profit is more important than reputation/legacy.
The saving grace here is that the area is so dense with so many buildings of similar height so close together that you won‘t see all of the unfortunate value-engineering, especially from a pedestrian scale. Let’s hope the first few floors with the preserved facades on Mercer Street would be decent (at the very least).

This is the first place I’ve heard of Nobu and likely the first place I’ll experience them. To be honest I didn’t realize they were just licensing the brand.

I would have never pegged them at the same level as Shangri-La or Four Seasons! I was thinking it’d be more Marriott or Hyatt.

If this was supposed to be ultra luxury and Nobu’s first property in the country then they should be extremely embarrassed.
 

M Anonymous

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This is not what was promised, and it's not turning out to be the 1st class development we were promised. And I kinda want my money back. So to speak!
 

neuhaus

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This is the first place I’ve heard of Nobu and likely the first place I’ll experience them. To be honest I didn’t realize they were just licensing the brand.

I would have never pegged them at the same level as Shangri-La or Four Seasons! I was thinking it’d be more Marriott or Hyatt.

If this was supposed to be ultra luxury and Nobu’s first property in the country then they should be extremely embarrassed.

Nobu is an ultra upscale Japanese restaurant with locations around the world. It is a popular jaunt for celebrities.
I have never been to a Nobu, but I have eaten at Matsuhisa in Aspen long ago (before Nobu restaurant started) and had the pleasure and honour of being served at the sushi bar by Nobu Matsuhisa himself. The food was so fresh and spectacular and the atmosphere is quintessential Japanese and so serene.
It's definitely on par with Four Seasons and the Shangri-La (and more exclusive), which is why I found this to be so disappointing and embarrassing.

Here’s more info:



 

daptive

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Nobu is an ultra upscale Japanese restaurant with locations around the world. It is a popular jaunt for celebrities.
I have never been to a Nobu, but I have eaten at Matsuhisa in Aspen long ago (before Nobu restaurant started) and had the pleasure and honour of being served at the sushi bar by Nobu Matsuhisa himself. The food was so fresh and spectacular and the atmosphere is quintessential Japanese and so serene.
It's definitely on par with Four Seasons and the Shangri-La (and more exclusive), which is why I found this to be so disappointing and embarrassing.

Here’s more info:




This makes it all the more weird that they partnered with Madison Group. There's nothing in their residential portfolio that says luxury, up-scale, or world-class… and their commercial portfolio has some downright offensive work; they even advertise that they built a cookie cutter suburban Boston Pizza.
 

3Dementia

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There’s an ugly pattern I see established with Madison: they hire Turner Fleischer as design architects… a lot.

When they hire really good architects like Teeple to design ‘Alias' and ’Nobu’ , guess who the architects of record are? Answer: Turner Fleischer

I’m very concerned about the fate of 150 Eglinton East which I happen to like a lot. But maybe BDPQ can insinuate something resembling their design into what gets built (so far no mention of TF on the project 😶‍🌫️).
 

ProjectEnd

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I guess without getting too off topic here, @3Dementia, you'd have to clarify what the value of having a design architect like Teeple on for DD and working drawings would be to a developer like Madison?

I don't want the above to come across as an endorsement of Nobu - it's gross and recklessly cheap - but the question is worth fleshing out.
 

3Dementia

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I guess without getting too off topic here, @3Dementia, you'd have to clarify what the value of having a design architect like Teeple on for DD and working drawings would be to a developer like Madison?

I don't want the above to come across as an endorsement of Nobu - it's gross and recklessly cheap - but the question is worth fleshing out.
Not entirely clear to me what your question is... but my thesis is:

1. Madison hires TF as lead/design architects on stuff (eg. 1920 Eglinton East)

2. I'm speculating that TF as AOR may be impacting the "hands-on" execution of the work of Design Architects such as Teeple.

Of course I could be totally wrong and Madison is doing all the value-engineering (even calling in the orders for cut-rate cladding) for their projects, without input from any architects.
 

ProjectEnd

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Not entirely clear to me what your question is... but my thesis is:

1. Madison hires TF as lead/design architects on stuff (eg. 1920 Eglinton East)

2. I'm speculating that TF as AOR may be impacting the "hands-on" execution of the work of Design Architects such as Teeple.

Of course I could be totally wrong and Madison is doing all the value-engineering (even calling in the orders for cut-rate cladding) for their projects, without input from any architects.
1920 Eglinton is currently a massing exercise to establish zoning boxes for future project. Nothing else should be read into that scheme at this time. There is no real 'architect' it's TFAI and Madison just imagineering.

My point re: #2 is that as soon as the above boxes are established, developers like Madison will hire a 'fancy' architect to give it some lipstick, then have the 'real' architect, otherwise known as the AoR here, actually bring the building into being. A contract split can be somewhere from $100-200k for the former, and well over $1m for the latter (depending on the size of the project). AoR is far more complicated and complex role and while not as flashy - and often rightly more prone to UT criticism - it's absolutely more valuable to Madison than the 'designer'. I would venture that a good amount of the time, a firm like Teeple doesn't even really care - that sort of coordination and production work is not what that firm exists to do. Other firms explicitly won't take your job unless they're doing the whole thing since their outcome matters more to them than some butchered version of it.
 

3Dementia

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1920 Eglinton is currently a massing exercise to establish zoning boxes for future project. Nothing else should be read into that scheme at this time. There is no real 'architect' it's TFAI and Madison just imagineering.

My point re: #2 is that as soon as the above boxes are established, developers like Madison will hire a 'fancy' architect to give it some lipstick, then have the 'real' architect, otherwise known as the AoR here, actually bring the building into being. A contract split can be somewhere from $100-200k for the former, and well over $1m for the latter (depending on the size of the project). AoR is far more complicated and complex role and while not as flashy - and often rightly more prone to UT criticism - it's absolutely more valuable to Madison than the 'designer'. I would venture that a good amount of the time, a firm like Teeple doesn't even really care - that sort of coordination and production work is not what that firm exists to do. Other firms explicitly won't take your job unless they're doing the whole thing since their outcome matters more to them than some butchered version of it.
Thanks for fleshing out the role of AoR (though this "far more complex role" might reinforce the notion that TF has some skin in the "V-E" game... or is it just Madison?). I guess the question remains, in the blame game, is the developer the sole perpetrator?

Your lipstick 💄suggestion that "a firm like Teeple doesn't even really care" has drained away the tiny bit of hope I had left... when browsing this forum's huge repository of rendering eye-candy. Ok, I finally get it. There is no Santa Clause (sic). Thanks. ;)

In the meantime, I think there may be one (much) more interesting UT pattern that I've uncovered: some great executions of great designs have a single firm or 2 firms with equal billing*... under just "Architect". Hmmm...

*(HPA - 1 Bloor E, WilkinsonEyre and Adamson & Assoc.- CIBC Sq, Foster + Partners, Core Architects - The One circa 2029 etc.)
 

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