cranehunter123
Active Member
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Toronto MRKT | 53.03m | 15s | Tridel | CS&P
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votemac
Active Member
Augusta St. is also now fully complete and open to traffic
Towered
Superstar
Wasn't it supposed to get a traffic light??
ward10
New Member
I think so? I hope so. Walking by in the last week, you now have drivers frequently (and dangerously) barging across the E-W traffic, where none could do so before. Toronto Planning really needs to reflect on their orthodoxy of reconnecting street grids. Why did Kensington Market need more vehicles funneled into it?
Northern Light
Superstar
There is a logic behind it; its about reducing ghetto'ization and stigma.
Its about integrating one neighbourhood into the next, and about drawing people and yeah, even cars into every community, so that there's greater safety, greater understanding of different areas etc. The idea was not to push more traffic into Kensington it was to let that traffic flow south into Alexandra Court.
Its sound logic.
Now you might make the case, that they could have achieved that idea without directly connecting Augusta to Augusta, and that's fair; but the opportunity was obvious (August previously did go through); and the idea is not to create a maze.
Alex. Park, many years ago, had lots of knee-walls and even taller walls dispersed through the community which was really designed, long before contemporary times to be mostly car-free.
The result was high crime, places where people could do things 'hidden' in plain sight, where sightlines were terrible, where emergency services often had difficulty figuring out how to reach a particular address; and the community was very socially isolated, because someone living, working or visiting Kensington or Queen West had no reason to go through Alexandra; and even if they did, they weren't comfortable..........."How do I get from here to there?, there's dead ends everywhere!"
So that's the thinking.
Now, it can have adverse impacts as you note; but there are ways to address that. It could be RIRO at Dundas (Right In, Right out, only), or a traffic light, or the use of one-ways, or different design choices so that you're not facilitating a highway-like environment.
But I much prefer to see a community inviting people to come in, and residents to go out and to mix; and I think an integrated street grid is part of that, on the whole, in most cases.
Pushing off-set roads though leads to diminishing returns (its less convenient for drivers, but also for cyclists, and pedestrians); and it also complicates how you regulate traffic.
torontologist
Active Member
I think the solution to this predicament is to finally pedestrianize Kensington Market!
Northern Light
Superstar
The City would still like to pursue this, partially, in 2027; I'm one of those who pushed for deferral after obnoxious locals (mostly, but not entirely businesses) opposed it, and killed the idea of using interlock paving, in favour keeping asphalt.
That really struck me as incredibly short sighted, and I wanted to see the project pushed off in the hopes we could do better than the watered down effort now on the table.
I would encourage you to write to the BIA indicating that you love the idea and would be as regular or more regular a shopper/diner in the area if pedestrianization went ahead.
That said, most of Augusta, even under the slightly more ambitious plans was to remain open to cars; so I don't think a full closure of that road is in the near-term offing. But its certainly something we can progress in the direction of...
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AnnetteMeetsJane
Active Member
I understand the value of restoring the street grid in terms of safety. It has been a game changer in similar contexts in the UK.
But (and there's always a but) connecting the smaller streets e.g. Augusta through from College down to Queen is going to make them a good by-pass (rat run) to avoid the backups on Bathurst and to a lesser extent Spadina and the Dundas/Bathurst intersection. The narrowness of the streets helps to keep the traffic speeds down to some extent, but the on-street parking makes it difficult to see pedestrians. I imagine that on-street parking will increase as drivers travel into the area, which does help the businesses. Some difficult decisions lie ahead resolving all the competing demands for space in the area.
But (and there's always a but) connecting the smaller streets e.g. Augusta through from College down to Queen is going to make them a good by-pass (rat run) to avoid the backups on Bathurst and to a lesser extent Spadina and the Dundas/Bathurst intersection. The narrowness of the streets helps to keep the traffic speeds down to some extent, but the on-street parking makes it difficult to see pedestrians. I imagine that on-street parking will increase as drivers travel into the area, which does help the businesses. Some difficult decisions lie ahead resolving all the competing demands for space in the area.
Towered
Superstar
There needs to be a light there. What's the point of re-connecting Augusta, and by association, Kensington Market to Queen West if drivers can't even cross Dundas to get there??
Northern Light
Superstar
The point is also a pedestrian connection, and a cycling connection, which taken together will be larger than the customer volume by car.
A light may be necessary, I'd have to go back and look at it..... but, the value for motorists would not be the 'driving' issue, pun intended.
ward10
New Member
Indeed. Why was this new road implemented this way? Why not an offset intersection continuing Augusta's southern alignment to discourage through traffic? Why was this block opened before the signal went in? Why is the the Wales to Dundas stretch not having one-way direction reversed, or the Dundas to Grange stretch not haveing one-way direction reversed to discourage through traffic?
Why do we build new risks to driver and pedestrian safety that don't serve a specific need?
I think there are layers to this. Cars-as-eyes-on-the-street do seem effective compared to the pedestrian paths of 60's projects, but is also effective at building bland, windswept streetscapes like the new streets of Regent Park. It speaks to a fear of people, and a fear of small scale density, that if instead embraced can make superior neighbourhoods with pedestrian eyes on the street.
AnnetteMeetsJane
Active Member
The value of reinstating the grid isn't 'car-as-eyes' as much as it encourages pedestrians to walk the area. As a woman, I don't feel comfortable walking into a space unless I can see a safe exit out and whether the area in between looks safe. I walk Cameron, Vanauley and Augusta Sts all the time because they are straight. I absolutely never walk into the older townhome section where Vanauley Walk and Grange Cres. meander through enclosed courts.
The streets don't need to be a wide, windswept streetscape (and the streets in this area aren't, and never will be, like Regent's Park). They do need to be well lit and see-through-to-the-other-end-able.
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ward10
New Member
Appreciate the perspective. FWIW, as a tall dude I also instinctively don't feel as safe walking Vanauley Walk compared to other streets in the area. The combo of public housing cheapness (wall-to-wall asphalt) and disinvestment also make the place kind of depressing. But I think the architects had valuable ideas about intimate and quieter spaces that City Hall has yet to relearn. Big setbacks around the MRKT building make it feel more open, but also soulless, in a way that I don't think will improve with age.
I think the new stretch of Augusta would have been better as a wide pedestrian thouroughfare with stores fronting onto it. That we just build in new road conflicts b/c that's the default solution for old public housing neighbourhoods if kind of depressing. Ookwemin Minnising showed it's possible to open a new road with signals from day one, before those signals are required. I know it's a minor street in the big scheme of things, but seems revealing how little buy in there is for Vision Zero.
I think the new stretch of Augusta would have been better as a wide pedestrian thouroughfare with stores fronting onto it. That we just build in new road conflicts b/c that's the default solution for old public housing neighbourhoods if kind of depressing. Ookwemin Minnising showed it's possible to open a new road with signals from day one, before those signals are required. I know it's a minor street in the big scheme of things, but seems revealing how little buy in there is for Vision Zero.
rdaner
Senior Member
So happy that complete streets are being installed as everyone knows purely pedestrian routes are a proven failure that dramatically increase crime.
Northern Light
Superstar
Vision Zero has significant buy-in in City Hall, in both Transportation and Planning.
It is being implemented as quickly or ideally as we might like, no..... some mistakes have been made, but as noted, even in seemingly pro-bike, pro-pedestrian areas, full pedestrianization of even 1 block can be a big fight, involving organized and funded opponents, and leave a councillor in an awkward spot and staff in the midst of it all.
Every major road reconstruction and/or new build is looking at pedestrian facilities, streetscaping, green streets, traffic calming, cycling facilities, lane narrowing, raised crosswalks, protected intersections and slip lane removal to name but a few.
Also, remember that designs you see today in Alex Park were worked through more than 5 years ago now. So what you see today, often reflects where design was, when a project began.