Toronto Monde | 149.95m | 44s | Great Gulf | Moshe Safdie

Earlier today:

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it looks good for a master planned landscape, but never possible to emulate the amiable miscellany that people love about older neighbourhoods. Do any of these big developers try to build projects that benefit from being built at once, but look like they were built in many parts and styles over many years?
 
ponyboy said:
Do any of these big developers try to build projects that benefit from being built at once, but look like they were built in many parts and styles over many years?
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It's not really possible. Any project that tries to do this would inevitably build a romanticized portrayal of a style, not the actual style. Some people call it the Mad Men effect, or something similar to that, where a portrayal of the past - or the present, for that matter - tries so hard to be real that it's obviously fake.
 
amnesiajune said:
It's not really possible. Any project that tries to do this would inevitably build a romanticized portrayal of a style, not the actual style. Some people call it the Mad Men effect, or something similar to that, where a portrayal of the past - or the present, for that matter - tries so hard to be real that it's obviously fake.
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Agreed- you can try to emulate all the parts of an old neighborhood, from the proportions to the retail widths, but as long as it's all under one ownership, you usually don't get the diversity of thought that leads to resilient small-scale retail and vibrant informal neighbourhood programming that most people love about good neighbourhoods.

It's how even informal settlements are inevitably more vibrant than most master-planned developments even if they're uglier and messier- the underlying dynamics are similar to our "vibrant" neighbourhoods even if the appearances are different.

You occasionally get it in a large building (perhaps in a second-hand, "reappropriated" one like old industrial), but newer buildings usually don't aim for an unique retail experience IMO (and if it is, it'll usually be "curated").
 
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Thanks for the interesting insight. I agree that it is not possible to pull it off to a discerning observer, but I imagine that many people would like such a place and not be offended by the fakery. Some of the new urbanism developments try to do this to some extent, although usually much lower density. The Celebration community near Disney in Florida is one well know example. People love those fantasy shopping malls in Las Vegas that depict European facades under blue sky ceilings. Downtown Markham has created a street of three story buildings that kind of looks like a typical Toronto avenue. Maybe these are more places to visit rather than live. I know that China has created a mini Paris that it want to become a populated city. I wonder how these places will do in the long run. They may be perceived as unappealing fakes by some, but they are emulating some features that have worked well in other places for centuries. I hope that Monde and the other waterfront buildings will create an interesting interface with park and public pathways and people from all walks of life will be welcome and find something fun there.
 
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Very interesting conversation. It seems that the most interesting neighbourhoods to live in and to visit are places that have evolved 'naturally' over a long period of time. I know when I go to other cities to visit it is the older areas that I spend time in and that visitors go. For example when I visit Paris I don't go to 'La Defence' but the older more historic areas. Having said that I like to look at the new areas out of interest etc. Meanwhile back to east Queen's Quay I am very exited about the new developments here and the extension of new places to live. I hope that this new area will be become a destination and I believe it will.
 
amnesiajune said:
It's not really possible. Any project that tries to do this would inevitably build a romanticized portrayal of a style, not the actual style. Some people call it the Mad Men effect, or something similar to that, where a portrayal of the past - or the present, for that matter - tries so hard to be real that it's obviously fake.
Click to expand...

Refer to the Carnaby Condos: http://urbantoronto.ca/database/projects/carnaby-condos

A mega-slab building with a differentiated facade to break up the scale.
 
ponyboy said:
it looks good for a master planned landscape, but never possible to emulate the amiable miscellany that people love about older neighbourhoods. Do any of these big developers try to build projects that benefit from being built at once, but look like they were built in many parts and styles over many years?
Click to expand...
The Honest Ed's redevelopment probably comes the closest to that ideal. The lot is large and the architecture is consistently modern, but the form emulates narrow lots with fine-grained retail.

Unfortunately, the only way to get the variety in age and built form that we see in older neighbourhoods is with smaller lots, and economics and planning policy don't favour developments at that scale. Older buildings on main streets don't usually have on-site parking, and their loading and servicing setup wouldn't be permitted in new developments. The fixed costs associated with development approvals also favour larger lots, as I understand the economics just don't work at smaller scales. Nearly all new developments involve large lots or land assemblies with very wide street frontages, and that's probably not going to change without some big policy shifts.
 
Look at those beautiful clean lines- and marvel at the fact that the design intent got carried over into construction.

Now compare to Aqualina, where the whole concept of frames and water is ultimately muddled by the cheap exterior execution.
 
Honestly I think Aqualina looks much better now with Monde to compliment it. The two in conjunction with sherbourne common look really well planned, and are very photogenic.
 
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