MGM-Cadillac Fairview Casino Proposal for Exhibition Place | ?m | ?s | Cadillac Fairview

jje1000

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And the hypocrisy of the CNE stating that they want to turn Ontario Place into a tourist destination? They demand one entity to stop implying the use of the CNE brand and then use the brand of another entity (I assume without their consent).

There is nothing found directly on that site that screams of the Ontario Place logo, and the news release below is but a response to the John Tory-led report on Ontario Place of the possibility of joining Exhibition Place and Ontario Place together. There is no appropriation anywhere.
 

fedplanner

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http://www.nowtoronto.com/daily/story.cfm?content=191565

Despite seeming to make a point of not calling their casino a casino, and focusing on spec-paintings of Ferris wheels rather than the conspicuous concrete slabs that dot the would-be resort, MGM pretends to be about transparency. This weekend, they’re hosting an open-door “career showcase,” where the public can learn about the 10,000 jobs MGM claims to be bringing to Toronto, while rubbing shoulders with celebrity chef Mark McEwan and Bellagio COO Randy Morton – a “George Brown College Graduate,” the notice stresses, just like you!
 

Scottyholden

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"Career Showcase" heh, yeah right!

Wait a job fair!? With Mark McEwan? Who do they think they are!?! Quick we all need to get enraged!

"No new jobs! No new jobs! No new jobs!"
 
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Urban-Affair

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Wait a job fair!? With Mark McEwan? Who do they think they are!?! Quick we all need to get enraged!

"No new low level jobs! No new low level jobs! No new low level jobs! Yes for no accountability for higher suicide rates, broken families and broken homes"

Fixed for you. Last I checked our unemployment levels weren't that desperate.

I agree that this proposal is underwhelming and doesn't fit well. I would prefer to see a big donation to infrastructure and the Oxford site proposal realized if we have to have a casino at all, im still unconvinced of the benefits, seeing as to who usually runs/owns these types of organizations. Casinos wouldn't pull the wool over our eyes would they? They are nothing but angelic corporate darlings providing all positive results right? Look at Las Vegas, its a diverse cultural gem with a thriving centre, and has really helped improve the city overall. Praise Casino god!
 

Scottyholden

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Fixed for you. Last I checked our unemployment levels weren't that desperate.


They pay well. The average wage for a an employee at a casino in Ontario is 19.34. I know alot of 20 - 30 year olds who would take those jobs in an instant. Card dealing especially. They make ridiculous tips, like $10-20,000 a year.

I mean, you can pretend they pay low, because you have this scummy view of Casino's. Or you can use google.

I'm more of an oxford proposal man myself. But attempting to paint everything about this proposal with a negative brush just makes you look immature. You need to be able to support your side of the arguement while in some cases understanding there are positive sides to it aswell. It's hard to take you seriously otherwise. (more of a "you people" 'you')

I sourced average incomes from payscale.com, and livingin-canada.com . I also was born in the niagara region, and had family that worked at casino niagara and made fantastic wages.


EDIT: and LOL comparing Vegas to Toronto. Keep in mind, the city of Las Vegas was built to accommodate workers at casinos... They didn't build the city and then decide to build casinos.

A better comparison would've been New York, or Philadelphia, or the Chicagoland Casino. I know it doesnt support your arguement, but atleast it's more comparing apples with apples.
 
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Privateer

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Like Scotty said the average pay that MGM talks about isn't that far fectched. I worked the Ajax slots, as security, I saw first hand how generous people can be when tipping wait staff and slot attendants. And since generally in alot of casinos the tips are pooled among those workers, everyone gets a cut. In some cases the waitstaff, slot attendants, dealers, make more per year than their supervisors. As well, I am going to go out on a limb and suggest that the figure is also including the value of benefits, bonuses etc., which is something quite a few companies do. And the best time to get a full time gig in casino, is when it first opens. I know from experience because I was at Ajax when it opened, there were quite a few FT spots up for grabs (unfortunately I wasn't sucessful, I was a PT doing FT hours during the first few months as the staffing levels were adjusted). The reason you almost never seen any kind of FT spots up for grabs is 1) current full timers rarely leave, 2) if they do vacate, there is never any trouble filling the spot internally.
 

Urban-Affair

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They pay well. The average wage for a an employee at a casino in Ontario is 19.34. I know alot of 20 - 30 year olds who would take those jobs in an instant. Card dealing especially. They make ridiculous tips, like $10-20,000 a year.

I mean, you can pretend they pay low, because you have this scummy view of Casino's. Or you can use google.

I'm more of an oxford proposal man myself. But attempting to paint everything about this proposal with a negative brush just makes you look immature. You need to be able to support your side of the arguement while in some cases understanding there are positive sides to it aswell. It's hard to take you seriously otherwise. (more of a "you people" 'you')

I sourced average incomes from payscale.com, and livingin-canada.com . I also was born in the niagara region, and had family that worked at casino niagara and made fantastic wages.


EDIT: and LOL comparing Vegas to Toronto. Keep in mind, the city of Las Vegas was built to accommodate workers at casinos... They didn't build the city and then decide to build casinos.

A better comparison would've been New York, or Philadelphia, or the Chicagoland Casino. I know it doesnt support your arguement, but atleast it's more comparing apples with apples.


Glad to hear your family did well in Casinos. I have no issue with people doing well, so I hope you didn't mention that because you took what I said personally. My concern is purely social and economic for the long term benefit of the city, and yes I was being a bit silly with the low wage thing, although calling someone immature or really calling someone anything without knowing them is somewhat ironic, however I won't resort to returning that kind of unpleasantry as I don't know you, and respect your opinion as flawed as I feel it is. Thanks for the google tip though, and may I return the advice by mentioning that if you are going to use sources, filtering out the fluff sites or the first couple sites that pop up, might be wise. For example, I think this site holds more credit than the ones you used:

http://www.servicecanada.gc.ca/eng/qc/job_futures/statistics/6443.shtml


^This site helps your argument, and so I will concede partially. The wages that people receive on average are quite high, with a large percentage making over $50,000. The average is $49,000 in Casinos. The average for all other jobs is 45k. So its a bit above average really, I will concede that it isn't low paying, but on average it certainly isn't high paying either. Tips obviously take it higher, but at the same time I am doubtful most casinos have a strong policy for benefits or pensions so it may equal out in the end.

However, the education categorization for Casinos shows that most people working at casinos are coming out of high school, or have some post secondary education. Most people with Bachelors or above, don't end up at casinos. Perhaps, they realize the long term outlook of working at a casino is not as fulfilling as working elsewhere in a more ethically up market establishment, where you can have a real career where you aren't involved in systematically taking advantage of people by billionaire owners to the point where suicide rates and gambling debt become so problematic. I may be wrong, but I still have faith in people that ethics is still a consideration in these things. I mean is it really that much different from when the mob ran it? I guess that's part of the attraction to some.

Also I do realize that Las Vegas became a destination and wouldn't be anything without the almighty casino. However, since casinos essentially created las vegas and las vegas is really not doing so well these days and Toronto really is, I would have to say there is some connection to be made between the state of the city, and the fact that it relies heavily on its casino origins. You're right though we shouldn't compare it to Toronto. Toronto has done much much better without reliance on casinos and is actually in fine shape economically, and compared to most cities, socially as well. New York is not a good comparable either because it has many many economic engines, whereas Toronto has some but not as many, and Las Vegas really has tourism/entertainment/casinos and conferences as its main economic stimulants. Philidelphia is a good example, similar size, closer economic clout, actually has a casino in it.
http://www.casinofreephilly.org/casino-facts/casinos-economic-impact
This site has links to government and scientific studies showing the negative impacts of casinos that most know about, but some would rather not talk about.

Lastly, I have a few questions, one is how well is the Niagara region doing economically due to Casinos? I would say not as well as promised and certainly not proportionally to how well the casino does. Don't be confused; this is not some symbiotic relationship of equals. I recognize the benefits; that the casino creates jobs and plenty of them, although its debatable how many existing jobs falter in order to create new jobs within the casino alone. Substituting or displacement is a common problem in cities with casinos. For every job created there is often a loss of a job or more. Another study from that Philidelphia anti casino page, however conducted by the New York Times found that 27 out of 57 counties analyzed experienced a net job loss. Not worth the risk is it for a city that is already doing fine economically? It appears to be less jobs overall with a casino, albeit higher paid ones.

And yes, Vegas, and Niagara Falls to a large degree appeal to the lowest common denominator and are incredibly tacky. Its fun, but low grade fun and usually results in burnt out people roaming the strip or heading off to Freemont. Not that that would happen right away, but over time? Depressing thought.

Lastly, here is a pretty fair article that looks at both sides of the argument. Take from it what you will. Personally I think Toronto is doing just fine and isn't in need of a casino. Not sure how Niagara or Windsor are doing. I think we should be looking at new industries and technology innovation and the fact that we have an abundance of resources. Casinos should be a last resort, not a go to in the good times.
http://www.thespec.com/news/local/article/806490--the-gambling-question-pros-and-cons
 

jje1000

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The city has done well before a casino has existed, and will continue to do so without. I really see no reason to be falling-head-over-heels in the rush towards a casino.
 

Privateer

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but at the same time I am doubtful most casinos have a strong policy for benefits or pensions so it may equal out in the end.

OLG is the biggest Casino employer in this province they have benefits/pension. To keep up with the Jones so to speak the other operators, do offer benefits/pensions as well.

However, the education categorization for Casinos shows that most people working at casinos are coming out of high school, or have some post secondary education. Most people with Bachelors or above, don't end up at casinos. Perhaps, they realize the long term outlook of working at a casino is not as fulfilling as working elsewhere in a more ethically up market establishment, where you can have a real career where you aren't involved in systematically taking advantage of people by billionaire owners to the point where suicide rates and gambling debt become so problematic. I may be wrong, but I still have faith in people that ethics is still a consideration in these things. I mean is it really that much different from when the mob ran it? I guess that's part of the attraction to some.

Wow what biased and woefully ignorant attitude. 1) The majority of positions within a casino are obviously going to be front line entry level type positions (bar staff, security, hostess, dealers etc.). But there are plenty of people within the industry who have some form of higher education, and many of them have been in the industry for quite some time. All you need to do is go on LinkedIn and search for people who work at casinos.
 

Urban-Affair

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Wow what biased and woefully ignorant attitude. 1) The majority of positions within a casino are obviously going to be front line entry level type positions (bar staff, security, hostess, dealers etc.). But there are plenty of people within the industry who have some form of higher education, and many of them have been in the industry for quite some time. All you need to do is go on LinkedIn and search for people who work at casinos.

Of course its biased, its my opinion, and while this might be ignorant to you, to me I think its detrimental and unethical to have people with billions take allow people with gambling and debt problems to fall deeper. There is a free credit program at a lot of casinos, where people can get loans of money above what they might get at say a regulated bank, and the only stipulation is you hve to pay it back in a month. Obviously many default and then owe high levels of interest. I find that to be ignorant to doing something for the public good. I find the whole thing to be unethical really if there is no, (or very minimal) accountability towards insuring the health and well-being of those people casinos attract and really do take advantage of. Its like a drug dealer offering rehab, but not really caring if their clients fully get rehabilitated. Are we really to beleive that casinos have a problem with people's gambling addictions and debt? They have some programs but how well they work is questionable, and there are negatives here. Also, I still think the info from statscan is a better source than looking up individual LinkedIn accounts.

Its funny cause i was on the fence for a long time until I really observed in casinos. I mean no offense meant here to anyone, its just how I feel about it personally. Its rather piranha like to me
 

Privateer

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Of course its biased, its my opinion, and while this might be ignorant to you, to me I think its detrimental and unethical to have people with billions take allow people with gambling and debt problems to fall deeper.

What's unethical about adults to free make choices about their own lives? Many thousand of people are in fact pretty responsible when it comes to gambling.

There is a free credit program at a lot of casinos, where people can get loans of money above what they might get at say a regulated bank, and the only stipulation is you hve to pay it back in a month. Obviously many default and then owe high levels of interest.

Do you have sources to back that up? No? You know why, because that doesn't happen in Ontario. If you (and others) are going to decry the "evils" of casinos, please stick to how they are operated and and regulated in THIS province.

I find that to be ignorant to doing something for the public good. I find the whole thing to be unethical really if there is no, (or very minimal) accountability towards insuring the health and well-being of those people casinos attract and really do take advantage of. Its like a drug dealer offering rehab, but not really caring if their clients fully get rehabilitated. Are we really to beleive that casinos have a problem with people's gambling addictions and debt? They have some programs but how well they work is questionable, and there are negatives here.

There are programs and support, but at the end of the day its called being an ADULT, and taking responsibility for one's actions.

Also, I still think the info from statscan is a better source than looking up individual LinkedIn accounts.
Yeah because seeing that are plenty of real people working in the gaming industry with post secondary education would invalidate your position that anyone with a higher education is too good to work in that industry.
 

fedplanner

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To the folks supporting the casino proposal. Which proposal do you prefer since presumably only one of the casino proposals will be built: Cadillac Fairview and the Exhibition Grounds or Oxford and Metro Toronto Convention Centre?

I look at the Ex proposal and I just see the typical singe-story casino floor area that generates huge amount of automobile traffic but contributes little to nothing of the surrounding neighborhood.

winstar11.jpg

Down the street from my location. MGM's proposal reminds me of this s*it.
 

Privateer

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So turning a bunch of empty parking lots, in an already under utilized area into to a location that will have quite a few attractions in it, contributes little to the area?? Have you read the prior 7 pages, where a few people have already highlighted what they think this project could do for the area? Heck for all you naysayers, in a few hours you can go and ask the MGM people directly about all the niggling little things that seem to be causing you discomfort. You know get information straight from the source. Or you can rant and rave on the net, and complain about lack of information and details.

I mean I get that some people don't like any casino project or this one in particular, but last I checked MGM is putting some info out there, and is willing to meet with the public. Oxford certainly hasn't put much out there, beyond their concept art.
 

fedplanner

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Oxford certainly hasn't put much out there, beyond their concept art.

http://oxfordplace.ca/OxfordPlaceDevelopment.pdf
What more do you want them to give?

Heck for all you naysayers, in a few hours you can go and ask the MGM people directly about all the niggling little things that seem to be causing you discomfort. You know get information straight from the source. Or you can rant and rave on the net, and complain about lack of information and details.

I ask a question about which one you prefer and you respond with this? I already gave my reason that I'm not a fan of the 10,000-12,000 space parking garage. I don't need to go to a propaganda event explaining why a casino at this location would be the best thing ever along with promises for the potential of high paying jobs.
 

Privateer

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Didn't see that before, but it has about the same level of detail that the MGM proposal has, just a few more concept pictures and some stats/info of what is already there.


I ask a question about which one you prefer and you respond with this? I already gave my reason that I'm not a fan of the 10,000-12,000 space parking garage. I don't need to go to a propaganda event explaining why a casino at this location would be the best thing ever along with promises for the potential of high paying jobs.

So you would rather rant anonymously on the net, and just assume it's all going to be propaganda, and not even attempt to ask them hard question? Alright then, talk about burying your head in the sand.
 
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