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afransen

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Frankly feels like we should have gone with elevated Skytrain style service or a BRT. But I guess choo choos waiting at traffic lights was the fad at the time. Hopefully we realize the error of this approach and don't repeat it.
 

robmausser

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Because it is impossible to give busses a right of way.?😏

Yes, just like its possible to give LRT's right of way.

Its also possible to have electric buses, whether overhead or battery.

The problem with buses however is capacity. Even bendy buses have capacity issues compared to what you can do with coupled LRTs.

The largest single expense to any organization is and always will be employees. Especially in a unionized public crown corp like a transit system.

Coupling 3 LRTs together and paying 1 driver vs 6 buses with 6 drivers greatly reduces operating expenses.

Also, driverless technology will be coming to LRT's way sooner than buses. Its simply easier to control a device with a computer when that said device rides on rails and doesn't have to be steered.

 

ARG1

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Also, driverless technology will be coming to LRT's way sooner than buses. Its simply easier to control a device with a computer when that said device rides on rails and doesn't have to be steered.

In both cases we're comparing technologies that are A LONG WAY away. In that same article they state:
While the legislative framework for driverless testing is in place, Litsutov cautioned that the actual deployment of trams without driver is still 10 to 15 years away. Part of the difficulty, the deputy mayor explained, is the limited tram headway during rush hours. At times there is a window of only 80 seconds between trams.
The biggest issue with automating trams is the fact that since its not an isolated system, you need to develop some form of Real Time system that can stop and detect unexpected hazards with 100% accuracy, any blind spot or programmatic error is too much. Such a system is unlikely to come around anytime soon. So technically it is true that trams might be easier to automate than busses, but in both cases the actual complexities that need to be solved are the end of the day quite similar.

The real concern at the end of the day is how much improvement do you have relative to the cost. Sure you have higher capacity vehicles, but now you also have longer headways, meaning you have to spend more time at the stop itself waiting for the next vehicle - a vehicle that is best case scenerio the same speed as the bus, but is likely to be slightly slower on average. Even if BRT is more expensive to operate, it would take approximately 30 years for the numbers to catch up, and during that time you are operating what is arguably a better service for the rider (unless you already have capacity constraints, at which point ye an LRT or even a Light Metro at that point makes sense).
 

W. K. Lis

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In both cases we're comparing technologies that are A LONG WAY away. In that same article they state:

The biggest issue with automating trams is the fact that since its not an isolated system, you need to develop some form of Real Time system that can stop and detect unexpected hazards with 100% accuracy, any blind spot or programmatic error is too much. Such a system is unlikely to come around anytime soon. So technically it is true that trams might be easier to automate than busses, but in both cases the actual complexities that need to be solved are the end of the day quite similar.

The real concern at the end of the day is how much improvement do you have relative to the cost. Sure you have higher capacity vehicles, but now you also have longer headways, meaning you have to spend more time at the stop itself waiting for the next vehicle - a vehicle that is best case scenerio the same speed as the bus, but is likely to be slightly slower on average. Even if BRT is more expensive to operate, it would take approximately 30 years for the numbers to catch up, and during that time you are operating what is arguably a better service for the rider (unless you already have capacity constraints, at which point ye an LRT or even a Light Metro at that point makes sense).
From 2019...
 

TOareaFan

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Yes, just like its possible to give LRT's right of way.

Its also possible to have electric buses, whether overhead or battery.

The problem with buses however is capacity. Even bendy buses have capacity issues compared to what you can do with coupled LRTs.

The largest single expense to any organization is and always will be employees. Especially in a unionized public crown corp like a transit system.

Coupling 3 LRTs together and paying 1 driver vs 6 buses with 6 drivers greatly reduces operating expenses.

Also, driverless technology will be coming to LRT's way sooner than buses. Its simply easier to control a device with a computer when that said device rides on rails and doesn't have to be steered.

My post was a tongue-in-cheek joke about buses (see included winky face) having to be "stuck in traffic" (from the post I responded to.

But to be clear, yes....each form of system has advantages and disadvantages in different circumstances.
 

ARG1

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From 2019...
If its as reliable as the video claims, then we would already be pushing out these trams in active service around many places, yet the only thing we see is occasional controlled trials with raised skepticism.

It might be possible to one day see them in full operation, but like anything computer related, it will always have some blindspot or datapoint that the algorithm overlooks, which makes it extremely challenging to run full scale, both technically, and legally.
 

W. K. Lis

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If its as reliable as the video claims, then we would already be pushing out these trams in active service around many places, yet the only thing we see is occasional controlled trials with raised skepticism.

It might be possible to one day see them in full operation, but like anything computer related, it will always have some blindspot or datapoint that the algorithm overlooks, which makes it extremely challenging to run full scale, both technically, and legally.
Those "extras" would put the price of the vehicles up. This isn't Europe or Asia, where the government "invests" in public transit, but Ontario which puts only pennies into public transit and considers it an "expense".
 

afransen

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Yes, just like its possible to give LRT's right of way.

Its also possible to have electric buses, whether overhead or battery.

The problem with buses however is capacity. Even bendy buses have capacity issues compared to what you can do with coupled LRTs.

The largest single expense to any organization is and always will be employees. Especially in a unionized public crown corp like a transit system.

Coupling 3 LRTs together and paying 1 driver vs 6 buses with 6 drivers greatly reduces operating expenses.

Also, driverless technology will be coming to LRT's way sooner than buses. Its simply easier to control a device with a computer when that said device rides on rails and doesn't have to be steered.

The hard part is not lane keeping. That is trivial in a BRT situation. The hard part is collision avoidance at intersections where there is no difference between LRVs and buses.
 

drum118

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Frankly feels like we should have gone with elevated Skytrain style service or a BRT. But I guess choo choos waiting at traffic lights was the fad at the time. Hopefully we realize the error of this approach and don't repeat it.
Replace Choos with BRT in your statement as it will have the same issue like buses do today as well offering a rougher ride. Then there is the extra cost for having to have more drivers and staff to deal with all the extra buses that will be needed to carry the same number of riders on 1-3 car LRT trains.

You are left with an elevated line that cost a hell a lot more to build and run as well having 2 or more elevators to make sure that those who can't use stair have a fighting chance to get to/from the station platform. Don't support the Skytrain system and what every system is build that it has the capacity to expand easy to meet future growth.

Not sure what taking place for the plaza at Dundas as well who paying for it, but A huge C with lights added and something being added to the roof edge.

Lakeshore West customers: There will be temporary service changes to Lakeshore West train service after 11:45 p.m. on February 12 and all-day February 13. These scheduled impacts are designed to minimize disruptions to weekday service. There will be no train service between Union Station and Oakville GO during these impacts. We’re carrying out important work related to the construction of the Hurontario LRT which can only take place when trains are not running. Please plan ahead so you know what your transit options are.

Here is what you need to know for Saturday February 12:

Eastbound:

· There are no modifications to service.
Westbound:
· The last train to make all stops to West Harbour departs Union Station at 11:45 p.m.
· The 12:45 a.m. train will originate from Oakville GO at 1:25 a.m. and continue making all stops to West Harbour, arriving at 2:03 a.m.
· There will be a bus bridge between Union Station Bus Terminal and Oakville GO.
· Regular scheduled late-night bus service will operate as planned.
Here is what you need to know for Sunday February 13:

Eastbound:

· Replacement bus service will run at regular hourly intervals departing from Oakville GO to Clarkson GO, Port Credit GO and Union Station Bus Terminal beginning at 5:56 a.m. until 11:56 p.m.
· Buses will depart between 8 –18 minutes later than regular train service.

Westbound:

· Replacement bus service will run at regular hourly intervals departing from Union Station Bus Terminal to Port Credit, Clarkson and Oakville GO beginning at 6:30 a.m. until 12:25 a.m.
· Buses will depart between 15 – 45 minutes earlier than regular train service.

Replacement buses will be available at Oakville, Clarkson and Port Credit GO to get you to Union Station Bus Terminal and back home again, directly from your GO station’s bus loop.

Replacement buses will not service Exhibition, Mimico, and Long Branch GO stations during the service adjustment. If you’re travelling from these GO stations, you have the following options:

· From Long Branch GO: Take TTC 501 Queen streetcar to Osgoode Station and transfer to TTC Line 1 to Union Station. Total time: 1 hour and 15 minutes.
· From Mimico GO: Take TTC bus route 76 Royal York to Royal York Station and transfer to TTC Line 2 to St. George and TTC Line 1 to Union Station. Total time: 1 hour.
· From Exhibition GO: Take TTC 509 streetcar to Union Station. Total time: 26 minutes.​
 

Lake Ontario

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Hydraulic jacks installed at Port Credit for the push box: https://blog.metrolinx.com/2022/02/...ork-for-one-of-most-technical-parts-of-route/
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Surveying the Milton Line bridge:
 

DirectionNorth

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Replace Choos with BRT in your statement as it will have the same issue like buses do today as well offering a rougher ride. Then there is the extra cost for having to have more drivers and staff to deal with all the extra buses that will be needed to carry the same number of riders on 1-3 car LRT trains.

You are left with an elevated line that cost a hell a lot more to build and run as well having 2 or more elevators to make sure that those who can't use stair have a fighting chance to get to/from the station platform. Don't support the Skytrain system and what every system is build that it has the capacity to expand easy to meet future growth.
An elevated line costs less to run - if you can automate it, you can increase frequencies without substantially increasing cost. Labor is a major cost for transit agencies. If your ROW was wide enough, you could earn back the capital costs with lower operation costs.

In addition, a grade-separated line is more reliable for users (cars won't block the tracks), faster (don't need to wait at lights), and you can run much higher frequencies on it. I don't think that a SkyTrain will be required on Hurontario for another century (the per km cost is triple for elevated VS Hurontario), but I think a SkyTrain system has very high applicability in many places in Toronto.
 

afransen

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A BRT would have been fine for Hurontario for decades and cost much less. LRT means worse frequencies. They already cut back initial frequency on Hurontario. I'm not even really convinced that over a 30 year span SkyTrain with short trains (enabled by running them more frequently) and small stations would have cost much more than the LRT. Hurontario is costing well over $100m/km, I doubt Skytrain in a relatively unchallenging environment would cost $300m/km. A comparison in Vancouver of elevated vs street running LRT was a 50% premium.

MCC is aspiring for some crazy density, I don't think it is that outlandish to think elevated rail service is warranted there. I would have even been okay with Brampton begging for their tunnel if we were getting automated light metro and not an LRT.

This could have become an important part of the regional rail network, connecting three GO Lines. It's too damned slow as LRT to be much use in that regard. At least if it were BRT we could run more express service.
 

drum118

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Feb 13
Not sure if this being fund by the LRT team, but artwork on the C is poor.

The tunnel has been moved a few feet and not up to the edge of the corridor yet. Lot of digging still to be done to allow the tunnel to move to the edge first before the big push gets underway in March.

Foundation work underway at the south end and most likely for the sump pump.

More up on my site.
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Allandale25

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Hazel LRT?



MEDIA ADVISORY

Premier Ford to Participate in Transit Line Renaming Ceremony​


February 14, 2022
Office of the Premier

Table of Contents​

  1. Content
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Premier Doug Ford will be joined by Caroline Mulroney, Minister of Transportation, and former Mississauga mayor Hazel McCallion for the renaming of a transit line.
Date:
Monday, February 14, 2022
Time:
Remarks at 12:00 p.m.
Location:
Mississauga, ON
Livestream:
With English closed captioning ― Premier’s official YouTube channel
With French interpretation and closed captioning ― Premier’s official YouTube channel - French
Notes:
Photo opportunity only.
 

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