Toronto Hullmark Centre | 167.94m | 45s | Tridel | Kirkor Architects
marcus_a_j
Senior Member
Mt. Pleasant, south of Lawrence. That's my favourite viewpoint of Hullmark and Emerald Park. Eastbound 401 over Hogg's Hallow is another classic Yonge and Sheppard viewpoint.
sunnyraytoronto
Senior Member
FYI,... On Wednesday, July 20th from 12noon to 7pm, City Planners will be at HullmarkCentre courtyard (public square in front of Rexall and RBC at HullmarkCentre - southeast corner of Yonge & Sheppard) for one on one discussion about local planning issues, planning studies, local development plans, etc,... I'll grill them on why 80% of HullmarkCentre office-condo (employment area) remains empty and what they plan to do to prevent that from happening at other local developments,.... The streetscape and public realm around HullmarkCentre is probably the best example of good design in North York Centre,....
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Waterloo_Guy
Active Member
Where did you get that 80% figure? And why does it matter? This is a private building, not a publicly-funded project.
ProjectEnd
Superstar
Exactly. What do you expect planning to do about vacant space held by a private company @sunnyraytoronto?
maestro
Senior Member
You need help.
We get it. They're condos and many are sold to investors that don't plan on using the space for themselves. It's like that with all condos. Heck, it encompasses everything related to real estate development in Toronto.
The city demanded office space and the developer delivered with minimum risk to themselves. Should they be faulted for this? You honestly think this space would be filled as conventional office space?
We get it. They're condos and many are sold to investors that don't plan on using the space for themselves. It's like that with all condos. Heck, it encompasses everything related to real estate development in Toronto.
The city demanded office space and the developer delivered with minimum risk to themselves. Should they be faulted for this? You honestly think this space would be filled as conventional office space?
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sunnyraytoronto
Senior Member
I've backed up my 80% of HullmarkCentre office-condo are empty statement many times here,...
http://urbantoronto.ca/forum/thread...l-kirkor-architects.668/page-105#post-1064647
Of course, if a certain someone would have taken up my bet then I would have shown my data too,..... Anyways, if you still doubt my 80% data,... best opportunity is to go to the Planner in Public Space event at HullmarkCentre,.... and ask city planner for their data,..... they've been monitoring the situation,... and their data are accurate since Tridel only delivers an office-condo shell (cement walls, cement floors, electrical box, water supply-drainage for each unit) thus, buyer still needed city building permit to proceed with further renovations to make the office-condo space habitable. City Planning keeps track of HullmarkCentre office-condo vacancy based on the number of city building permits granted,.... and whenever I discuss my 80% number with City Planning and other city staff, they never conflict it because it's consistent with their numbers.
Of course it matters,... city wants employment areas,... especially at subway interchanges and at prime corner lots of large arterial roads like Yonge & Sheppard,... empty office space don't provide any employment!
This North York Secondary Plan area has seen over 60 new residential condo towers since amalgamation in 1998 and only 1 new office tower,.... and now these a few of these measly token office-condo. North York Centre is now a vertical sleeping community. The vast majority of North York Centre residents do not work locally,.... many take the subway downtown which jam up the over-capacity Yonge line,... those who can't take transit to work - drive which creates some of the worst traffic congestion in North America. This isn't how you build a healthy urbanized area,... many posters here, just raa-raa-cheer-cheer for any tall tower,... but an area needs the proper mix between residential, office and retail usage,...
What doesn't matter is whether a development project uses private or public funds,.... In this case, Tridel HullmarkCentre is private funded project,... but they still needed City approval to proceed,.... city fought hard just to get the limited office space in Tridel HullmarkCentre: 3 storey in 5 storey podium and 12 storey in 45 storey north tower,... and nothing in 33 storey south tower. But developer just turn around and convert all the office space into more sellable small office-condo units,... sold the vast majority of the office-condo units to oversea investors,... who have absolutely no intentions of opening their own offices here or even renting or leasing them out. Thus, 80% of the office-condo space at HullmarkCentre still remains empty!
sunnyraytoronto
Senior Member
First of all, ALL of HullmarkCentre office space was converted to small office-condo format. While the city can not ban small office-condo space,.... the city can certainly limit and restrict the percentage of office space allowed to be converted so small office-condo format,.... both by city council rules and also by City Planning making such demands during the development application process. Similar rules and development agreements apply in terms of the percentage of a lot the actual house structure can occupy,.... or the percentage of large residential condo units vs smaller units.
sunnyraytoronto
Senior Member
First of all,.... all condos are not alike,..... the city doesn't care if residential condo remains empty or occupied,.... but the city does care a great deal if office space remains empty or occupied since it counts as employment area,..... an area needs to retain good employment areas to thrive,...
That's an interesting question,...
Now, if Tridel HullmarkCentre had built all the required office space as conventional office space (ie large format),... they probably wouldn't have been able to sell all of it,.... probably would still be left holding some,.... forcing Tridel to drop their price,.... and maybe some of the office tenants would even be less desirable,.... But how much of that conventional office space would remain empty? Even if it's like the 50% vacancy we see in those old midtown office buildings,... that'll still provide 150% more local jobs than currently!
But Tridel already converted all the required office space into small office-condo format and sold them off,.... mostly to foreign investors with no intentions of ever opening up an office here or even renting-leasing the office space out. Tridel HullmarkCentre made their profit from the office-condo space,.... they're risk free now,.... well, almost,... except, city planning keeps tab,... they monitor the situation,.... and remembers that Tridel screwed City Planning and the local community over,.... Now Tridel HullmarkCentre do these little show and dance every few months (see link below and they'll have a little booth at the City Planners In Public Space event at HullmarkCentre) - trying to make it look like they really are trying to fill up the office space. Truth is they can't anymore because most of the office-condos are owned by foreign "investors",... and I'm using that term very loosely,.... so why is their little show and dance here???? Shouldn't the Tridel HullmarkCentre show and dance be overseas,... just like when sold them oversea?????
http://urbantoronto.ca/forum/thread...l-kirkor-architects.668/page-105#post-1102252
maestro
Senior Member
First, you missed the point and there's little difference between condo documents between residential, commercial (hotel, retial, office) or industrial.
Second, The city cares about property values because that is what they earn tax revenue on. Whether the properties are occupied or not is largely out of their control. They can adjust taxes which wouldn't be in their best interest and probably wouldn't make a whole lot of difference. They can also make it more difficult for real estate speculation although it's pretty limited without the high er level of government doing the same.
Third, You cannot sell conventional, divisible space to anchor tenants. Tridel or Hullmark or another partner would be holding onto the space. I'm sure they did their homework and found no interest in such space. It would have been built as such at 50% preleased. You can build as much space as you want. You cannot invent tenants.
Second, The city cares about property values because that is what they earn tax revenue on. Whether the properties are occupied or not is largely out of their control. They can adjust taxes which wouldn't be in their best interest and probably wouldn't make a whole lot of difference. They can also make it more difficult for real estate speculation although it's pretty limited without the high er level of government doing the same.
Third, You cannot sell conventional, divisible space to anchor tenants. Tridel or Hullmark or another partner would be holding onto the space. I'm sure they did their homework and found no interest in such space. It would have been built as such at 50% preleased. You can build as much space as you want. You cannot invent tenants.
steveve
Senior Member
The crown:
salsa
Senior Member
I am just blown away by the views up here. This is from the 46th floor.
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steveve
Senior Member
^ Absolutely stunning. What an incredible perspective! I could stare at those all day...
salsa
Senior Member
Yeah me too. The best experience was when I visited this unit a few months ago. The clouds were perfect that evening which produced one of the most beautiful sunsets that I've seen in a long time. And then a little bit later a full moon came out, shining high and bright over the skyline in all of its nighttime lighting. I don't have the words to describe how beautiful it was. Regrettably I didn't bring a camera that day, so all I have are these two cellphone pics to remember it by.
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maestro
Senior Member
Nice view and apartment. I appreciate the upgraded trim. I'm not sure about the crown molding as it highlights all the bulkheads.