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Free market worship is absolutely nuts at times, and regulations are a necessity to protect often from market greed, so could we maybe not say silly blanket statements such as the 'market knows best'.

Personally I think it would be very unfortunate if we were only left with Starbucks and lost better coffee places. Their coffee isn't honestly all that good, but then I know a lot of people who think Tim Hortons is nice, and I feel like it numbs my lips like some numbing medical ingredient was added.
 
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Urban-Affair said:
Free market worship is absolutely nuts at times, and regulations are a necessity to protect often from market greed, so could we maybe not say silly blanket statements such as the 'market knows best'.
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I stand by what I wrote, and I think you are capable of reading my words in the context in which they were written. Are you suggesting that we need regulations to protect us from coffee shops that you don't like? I support a free market for coffee. Hardly controversial.
 
I think most people's peeve is the fact there are Starbucks really close to the neighbourhood already. When ever other corner is either a Starbucks/Tim Hortons/Shoppers, then yeah, it does get very monotonous.

Anyways, someone brought this up some time ago, but why are the lights always on in this building? It seems like a waste of energy.
 
Waterloo_Guy said:
I stand by what I wrote, and I think you are capable of reading my words in the context in which they were written. Are you suggesting that we need regulations to protect us from coffee shops that you don't like? I support a free market for coffee. Hardly controversial.
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I will assume you mean the retail market not the coffee market as a whole, as there have been regulations to prevent certain large companies from unfair trade practices in the past. For the sake of compromise, I agree to a point. My only concern is at what point do you intervene if larger corporations completely rid the market of smaller (dare I say more interesting) coffee retailers? Are we ok with with a Starbucks/McDonalds/Tim Hortons only coffee market? Perhaps this isn't a major issue at this point, and I have seen lots of small independent coffee stores still around Toronto, but I certainly would want to continue to have that choice, and diversity in the coffee retail market in the future.

As often is the case, many European cities approach issues like this with more consideration than we seem to, and we seem to view everything often through the lens of what can I get for cheap or fast, rush rush rush through the day, while they view it as more of an experience and way of life. Perhaps this is an issue with Canadian (North American?) culture being a bit behind when it comes to how we view food and beverages? Sorry, I am sure I am way OT at this point.
 
LUVIT! said:
I generally concur. However certain large chains want to corner the market and crush competition. As you say we can vote with our feet...but if there are no other choices due to bully tactics ...that is an issue.
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Rooster, Aroma, Neo, Black Canary -- there are several other independent coffee places in the neighbourhood.
 
Urban-Affair said:
Free market worship is absolutely nuts at times, and regulations are a necessity to protect often from market greed, so could we maybe not say silly blanket statements such as the 'market knows best'.

Personally I think it would be very unfortunate if we were only left with Starbucks and lost better coffee places. Their coffee isn't honestly all that good, but then I know a lot of people who think Tim Hortons is nice, and I feel like it numbs my lips like some numbing medical ingredient was added.
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Free market skepticism is absolutely nuts at times. We certainly need sensible regulations, but to regulate against specific chain retailers is, to use a phrase often overused by conservatives, picking winners and losers. I don't need some high-minded bureaucrat telling me where I'm allowed to buy my coffee, and I'm pretty staunchly left wing mind you. Now if you want to regulate, by law, the size of retail units, or the kinds of uses permitted in a neigbourhood, that's perfectly fine, but to target particular brands would be arbitrary and capricious.

LUVIT! said:
I generally concur. However certain large chains want to corner the market and crush competition. As you say we can vote with our feet...but if there are no other choices due to bully tactics ...that is an issue.
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Starbucks doesn't actually do anything to crush the competition other than selling good coffee. And the day we end up in some distopian future where Starbucks is the only coffee shop left a la Taco Bell in Demolition Man, then let's talk about bringing Canada's existing competition laws into play. For now, let's try not to blow things wildly out of proportion because some people don't like 'all those darn Starbucks!'

Urban-Affair said:
My only concern is at what point do you intervene if larger corporations completely rid the market of smaller (dare I say more interesting) coffee retailers? Are we ok with with a Starbucks/McDonalds/Tim Hortons only coffee market? Perhaps this isn't a major issue at this point, and I have seen lots of small independent coffee stores still around Toronto, but I certainly would want to continue to have that choice, and diversity in the coffee retail market in the future.
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The barrier to entry to open up a coffee shop is minuscule. That's why there are, in reality, new coffee shop brands popping up around the city on a regular basis. It's not akin to starting a telecommunications company or an auto manufacturing company. This vision of there only being three coffee retailers is silly.
 
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Okay so I started this Starbucks thing so let me clarify. I was being sarcastic about Starbucks. I don't drink coffee so another coffee outlet in the neighbourhood saturated by them rubs me the wrong way. But I get the economics and I get I'm the minority here (as a non-coffee drinker). And I get that online is changing retail tremendously so I have acceptance about it. I just wish it was something other than another coffee shop.
 
Ramako said:
You keep making this claim that I've personally attacked you. I frankly don't see what attacks you're referring to. On the other hand, you chastised me for using sarcasm, which I could easily construe as a personal attack upon myself according to your apparently loose definition of personal attack.



Oh yeah, you've really rustled my jimmies. Now self-admitted trolling; that is indeed a violation of the forum rules.
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Whatever, we'll hash it out over coffee sometime; I hear there's a new Starbucks headed somewhere around King and Berkeley.
 
LUVIT! said:
I generally concur. However certain large chains want to corner the market and crush competition. As you say we can vote with our feet...but if there are no other choices due to bully tactics ...that is an issue.
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And not all "mom and pops" are that rosy pictured alternative. Some treat their employees and clientele much worse than an anonymous chain. The good ones do not need to worry too much about a competing chain. The concern rests more with corporate landlords that don't give these independent outlets the space or cater to chain store demands.
 
So Starbucks is actually the entire southeastern corner unit, fronting Berkeley and Front. There's a liquor licence application in the window of the northeastern ground retail, but the hoarding is too far away for me to read it.
 
interchange42 said:
Seriously—Neo—you want to meet at Neo. You'll thank me!

And let that be an end to this tangent in this thread. No reason why you guys can't debate coffee in the Retail section of UrbanToronto though!

42
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This actually sounds like a worthwhile thread to start. Anyone want to take the initiative? :p
 
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