Toronto Eglinton Line 5 | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | Arcadis

[Northern Light]

Is it only a matter of time that Metrolinx merges with (takes over) the TTC?

In a word 'No'.......

I would agree with @crs1026 above........but would add..........

Mx despite its a massive budget and influence is actually a very small organization.

Head office wise, they fit in Union Station.......and only a small portion thereof........

IF they 'took over' the TTC...........the reality would be the TTC taking over them............

The latter organization is infinitely larger, far more senior management, far more middle management, far more technical expertise in house (yes, some of it not as good as one would hope, but :I digress)...........

Mx is a spec of dust to the TTC. I don't mean that in a silly way, but just a comparator of scale and size......

****

Organizational issues aside............ the province wants no part of the politics of running local bus services..........

 

[stevedean]

I know in the past, the TTC has had an aversion to having major service adjustments take place in the summer board periods (asides from the seasonal service reductions).

Unless Metrolinx presses them to do otherwise, i'd be surprised if the TTC would willingly look to start operations here in the summer board periods.

Oh well if that's the case for the TTC, then by all means, lets delay the launch to the Fall.
But then it's back to school season and we really don't want to disrupt the kids, so better wait.
OH but then it's the holidays and everyone will be in the Festive spirit, so we might as well push to 2026.
OH wait, then there will be snow so the TTC won't want to open then either...
Might as well just fill in the tunnel with concrete now...

 

[T3G]

Oh well if that's the case for the TTC, then by all means, lets delay the launch to the Fall.
But then it's back to school season and we really don't want to disrupt the kids, so better wait.
OH but then it's the holidays and everyone will be in the Festive spirit, so we might as well push to 2026.
OH wait, then there will be snow so the TTC won't want to open then either...
Might as well just fill in the tunnel with concrete now...

Perhaps we can arrange a carpool from the last day of the ION cars right into Toronto for the Crosstown's opening day!

 

[innsertnamehere]

In a word 'No'.......

I would agree with @crs1026 above........but would add..........

Mx despite its a massive budget and influence is actually a very small organization.

Head office wise, they fit in Union Station.......and only a small portion thereof........

IF they 'took over' the TTC...........the reality would be the TTC taking over them............

The latter organization is infinitely larger, far more senior management, far more middle management, far more technical expertise in house (yes, some of it not as good as one would hope, but :I digress)...........

Mx is a spec of dust to the TTC. I don't mean that in a silly way, but just a comparator of scale and size......

****

Organizational issues aside............ the province wants no part of the politics of running local bus services..........

Doesn't Metrolinx have over 5,000 employees? It's not exactly small.

Any Metrolinx takeover the TTC is going to be a technical reorganization anyway with most TTC staff simply becoming Metrolinx staff.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Yes but only if Metrolinx becomes a truly regional (and regionally governed) and truly arms-length organization - instead of an organ of the province. I would also demand the development of significant in-house design and engineering expertise in that scenario to displace the use of private consultants.

AoD

 

[Northern Light]

Doesn't Metrolinx have over 5,000 employees?

That headcount, to my understanding, would include all of Alstom's staff (train crews and maintenance), as well as third-party consultants at HQ.

The direct workforce is much smaller.

For comparison, the TTC has ~17,000 direct employees.

 

[T3G]

Even if Metrolinx ceased to be an organ of the province, even if they were considered quasi competent, it would still be detrimental to roll local transit into it.

This is the very principle of decentralization. Large, monolithic entities that have jurisdiction over a large area just simply won't be able to deal with micro-level issues effectively. It simply doesn't occur, there are too many things to draw one's attention away. That's why we have more microscopic levels of government. If we ever got to the point where rolling local transit into Metrolinx was on the table, we might as well do the thing properly and legally abolish all the cities in the province and let Doug Ford run wild as supreme leader of The Territory Formerly Known as Toronto.

 

[ThenWhat]

Some participants in this forum have inside information, so a question for them: What incentives, material or other, are there for the decision makers to open Line 5 earlier rather than later? Do they get bonuses, promotions, money, fame, or any other goodies if they speed up the opening? Will they lose anything as a result of delays? And conversely, are there perhaps personal incentives for delays?
We pretty well agree what's good for the rest of us, but what motivates those who have power to make things happen? Most of them are good people who want to do the right thing. However, that desire often conflicts with other priorities.

 

[unrealestate]

Has to be the worst project in the city's history. All this nauseating delay for a poorly designed glorified streetcar that will no doubt disappoint when it finally opens

Mercifully, at least we learned from this shit sandwich and the Ontario Line is planned much better with an automated subway and lots of TOD

 

[nfitz]

Has to be the worst project in the city's history.

How many years did the Toronto Viaduct take after it was approved in 1913? And then there's the construction of Union Station for which the corporate arrangements were sorted out in 1906, and construction delayed until 1914 but didn't open until 1927 (despite having everything but the trainshed open in 1920) - mostly caused by delays in the Toronto Viaduct (and of course the GTR bankruptcy). Even then, the trainshed construction continued until 1930.

 

[crs1026]

Doesn't Metrolinx have over 5,000 employees? It's not exactly small.

Any Metrolinx takeover the TTC is going to be a technical reorganization anyway with most TTC staff simply becoming Metrolinx staff.

Not that simple, and it's not about headcount.

First there is an organization redesign - one doesn't just have the two organizations report to a single CEO

Then there has to be a job description writing exercise, and a salary rating exercise.

Then people have to be placed in the new jobs, and issues of unplaced staff figured out (um, pink slips). Union jurisdictions have to be sorted out.

Then all the information systems have to be integrated and data reconciled.

Meanwhile all the operating policies and practices have to be reconciled and integrated.

The new teams have to familiarise themselves with all the interfaces, department authorities, reporting and notification requirements, and regulatory interfaces and processes. And budgets.

Try two years of not focusing on the customer or the ongoing projects.

- Paul

 

[cplchanb]

Shocking, it feels like a few weeks ago folks seemed hopeful for a potential Q1 opening and now October is coming up in discussions (as an extreme of course but still crazy)

I guess they were referring to Q1... 2026

 

[smallspy]

That headcount, to my understanding, would include all of Alstom's staff (train crews and maintenance), as well as third-party consultants at HQ.

The direct workforce is much smaller.

For comparison, the TTC has ~17,000 direct employees.

There's also the minor matter of ridership.

~60mil annually for GO compared to almost 400mil for the TTC.

How many years did the Toronto Viaduct take after it was approved in 1913? And then there's the construction of Union Station for which the corporate arrangements were sorted out in 1906, and construction delayed until 1914 but didn't open until 1927 (despite having everything but the trainshed open in 1920) - mostly caused by delays in the Toronto Viaduct (and of course the GTR bankruptcy). Even then, the trainshed construction continued until 1930.

Or that it took the City 80 years to finally straighten Dufferin? Or the eyesore that was the Stump? Or the Bayview Ghost?

There is a whole lot of recency bias going on in here....

Dan

 

[T3G]

How many years did the Toronto Viaduct take after it was approved in 1913? And then there's the construction of Union Station for which the corporate arrangements were sorted out in 1906, and construction delayed until 1914 but didn't open until 1927 (despite having everything but the trainshed open in 1920) - mostly caused by delays in the Toronto Viaduct (and of course the GTR bankruptcy). Even then, the trainshed construction continued until 1930.

I agree with all of this but ... which Toronto Viaduct? Not the Prince Edward? That only took 5 years to build after being approved ... not a staggeringly short time frame, but it doesn't seem like THAT long. The Brooklyn Bridge took 13 to build, the Manhattan Bridge 8, the Williamsburg Bridge 7... seems like 5 years is a pretty good time frame, all considering!

 

[jcam]

In a word 'No'.......

I would agree with @crs1026 above........but would add..........

Mx despite its a massive budget and influence is actually a very small organization.

Head office wise, they fit in Union Station.......and only a small portion thereof........

IF they 'took over' the TTC...........the reality would be the TTC taking over them............

The latter organization is infinitely larger, far more senior management, far more middle management, far more technical expertise in house (yes, some of it not as good as one would hope, but :I digress)...........

Mx is a spec of dust to the TTC. I don't mean that in a silly way, but just a comparator of scale and size......

****

Organizational issues aside............ the province wants no part of the politics of running local bus services..........

They also have a very large footprint down at 10 and 20 Bay.