Toronto Eglinton Line 5 | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | Arcadis

[urbanclient]

They're assuming the air pressure from the trains will push or pull the air out of the stations, most of the time. Doesn't work as well if the passageways are some distance from the trains' air pressure. (Reminds me of the old Klaatu song, "Sub-Rosa Subway", that used air pressure to move. The Beach Pneumatic Transit subway in New York City between 1869 and early 1870. See https://youtu.be/c4JUMcam3cc?si=iHIH4rWx_nlSm5Fv ),

Off the top of my head, metros with platform screen doors must have adequate forced ventilation for safety reasons. That's probably why I am associating ceiling ventilation and ducts near the ground with modern metro stations.

 

[UntitledCyclist]

It's actually not the rain that's the issue there, it's the humidity. And it's a problem at many of the underground stations.

It doesn't help that the tiles get fatally slick with the moisture, either. That ramp in down that hallway is downright dangerous.

Dan

They have had most of these stations mostly finished for how many years? At least 3? And there was nothing done proactively or retroactively about fixing these issues before the line opened...

 

[PL1]

They have had most of these stations mostly finished for how many years? At least 3? And there was nothing done proactively or retroactively about fixing these issues before the line opened...

One possibility is that with all the passengers, the amount of humidity has increased. This might not have been apparent during construction and testing

 

[UntitledCyclist]

One possibility is that with all the passengers, the amount of humidity has increased. This might not have been apparent during construction and testing

That seems quite unlikely to me. The stations are cavernous and it would take thousands of people's steamy breath to make that a difference. Also, they knew they would have passengers.

 

[Monarch Butterfly]

That seems quite unlikely to me. The stations are cavernous and it would take thousands of people's steamy breath to make that a difference. Also, they knew they would have passengers.

Not just the breath, but the wet footwear, clothing, umbrellas, and strollers. Some water drip off the people, some water vapour evaporates into the air from the clothes, and as the people walk, the wetness comes off their footwear leaving a trail of wet footprints.

 

[McGillicuddy]

If the century-old bits of the London Underground doesn't have a notable passenger-borne humidity problem, it's unlikely that the much-better-ventilated Line 5 has a passenger-borne humidity problem.

 

[smallspy]

Is this true? @smallspy because that would seem like a huge oversight. A very basic requirement in modern underground stations....

There is absolutely circulation control - it is required for fire safety. And there is some forced air circulation at certain underground bus terminals where air quality could be a problem.

But forced air circulation as what you would see in a store, or office? No. That's never been a thing in a Toronto subway station.

They have had most of these stations mostly finished for how many years? At least 3? And there was nothing done proactively or retroactively about fixing these issues before the line opened...

But what is there to fix here, exactly?

If it's humid, it's humid everywhere. It's not specific to the station. And it may just be a function of the new construction that will disappear as everything ages.

(Now, the poor choice of flooring, on the other hand....)

Dan

 

[Northern Light]

I haven't had a chance to look at the 'moisture' issues along Line 5, the only underground station I've visited thus far is Kennedy.

That said, in general, moisture can result from:

1) Surface flooding (not the issue here, it would seem)

2) Water infiltration (stations at or below the water table may have moisture issues from water permeating in through the walls/ceilings/floors. This is generally referred to as hydrostatic pressure.)

3) Condensation - moisture in the air cooling and liquefying, this can occur on the surface or can occur, depending on how things are bonded together, behind/underneath tiles or floors.

4) Cement is naturally porous and will let water through, older-cement based terrazzo routinely 'sweats' when the weather warms up. This should not happen w/the modern epoxy version.

5) Musty odors are generally indicative of mold or mildew growth.

*****

But what is there to fix here, exactly?

If it's humid, it's humid everywhere. It's not specific to the station. And it may just be a function of the new construction that will disappear as everything ages.

(Now, the poor choice of flooring, on the other hand....)

Dan

'Fixing' at this point is an issue, that said.....many new build stations around the world are climate controlled, they have, in many cases added central air including air conditioning. Obviously, full-height PEDs are required so you don't lose all that into the tunnels.

MTR has climate control, NYC's Hudson Yard Station has it too, so do underground stations in Singapore and Delhi.

I think the case could be made that it would be worthwhile to incorporate same into our station designs; but retrofitting may not be the best use of near-term funds.

 

[kamira51]

I took a trip on line 5 today for the first tine and im not a fan of Eglinton Station, its a very bland, dark, and extremely unappealing.

The fact that this line doesn't have platform screen doors is just horrible considering the platform is so low to the track level.

The speed it travels at is great.

 

[urbanclient]

But what is there to fix here, exactly?

If it's humid, it's humid everywhere. It's not specific to the station. And it may just be a function of the new construction that will disappear as everything ages.

Not just the breath, but the wet footwear, clothing, umbrellas, and strollers. Some water drip off the people, some water vapour evaporates into the air from the clothes, and as the people walk, the wetness comes off their footwear leaving a trail of wet footprints.

If metro stations in Wuhan do not have problems with humidity, with a much more humid climate, higher water table, and floodplain/wetland-dominated geography, then Line 5's problems lie with how they designed and built the stations. (And if you know anything about Wuhan's climate, more sweaty people)

Not enough waterproofing, sump pumps, ventilation.... all leading to these:

2) Water infiltration (stations at or below the water table may have moisture issues from water permeating in through the walls/ceilings/floors. This is generally referred to as hydrostatic pressure.)

4) Cement is naturally porous and will let water through, older-cement based terrazzo routinely 'sweats' when the weather warms up. This should not happen w/the modern epoxy version.

5) Musty odors are generally indicative of mold or mildew growth.

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They're assuming the air pressure from the trains will push or pull the air out of the stations, most of the time. Doesn't work as well if the passageways are some distance from the trains' air pressure.

I'll add, have you seen how small the train cross section is compared to the tunnel? The piston effect would be weaker than even Line 1's TYSSE tunnels.

 

[crs1026]

'Fixing' at this point is an issue, that said.....many new build stations around the world are climate controlled, they have, in many cases added central air including air conditioning. Obviously, full-height PEDs are required so you don't lose all that into the tunnels.

The areas that I noted were being "dried" in Mount Dennis station were fundamentally open to air, ie outside any fire doors or barriers and adjacent to open-air staircases and ramps leading to street and surface platforms.

I can't imagine any easy ventilation retrofit to these, certainly not HVAC.

What struck me was that the floor profile and drainage was pretty minimal - just the odd drain in the center. Our older stations tend to hve been built with gutter-like troughs ground in the terrazzo, running the full length of the passageways.

I can think of lots of instances where those are overwhelmed by sudden water flows - certainly puddles form in plenty of places at times - but the flooring at Mount Dennis is a contrast and seems to have been thought out by someone who is more attuned to residential basements or kitchens.

I'm confident that it meets code, but it may not be well designed in practice.

- Paul