In that time frame construction costs have increased significantly.
Toronto Daniels Waterfront - City of the Arts | 156.05m | 45s | Daniels | RAW Design
- Thread starter AlbertC
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In that time frame construction costs have increased significantly.
Waterfront
New Member
kotsy
Senior Member
The balcony design actually turned out quite nice. Should look even better once the gap for the elevator is filled in too.
Jowblow333333
Active Member
Beautiful. looking forward to the completion of all the balconies,
Waterfront
New Member
Waterfront
New Member
ushahid
Senior Member
taller one turned out decent due to the balcony motif but the shorter one is still random. they could have used same idea on the shorter one with different motif.
Amare
Senior Member
Had Daniels not laced this with some dull cheap grey spandrel this thing wouldve turned out half-decent, but I digress.
Waterfront
New Member
I keep seeing people say this on urbantoronto but there is no such thing as a “cheap” spandrel. All spandrel glass panel costs the same, whether its blue, grey, green, it’s just a back painted colour behind the glass; more spandrels actually is required nowadays for better energy performance which is why you see more buildings try the punch window look . You can say though that you don’t like the spandrel colour (eg. The Grey looks cheap but that is an opinion not fact). The glass itself depending on where it’s made could have some cost differences but not much, and it won’t make that much difference in appearance. The only significant cost difference that would make an aesthetic difference is the type of window system (window wall versus curtain wall). 95% of condos in Toronto are clad in window wall system even some of the ones that look like punched windows (eg. Picasso) The only ones that would justify curtain wall system is if it is a highend product or the tower is tall enough to house enough units to justify its premium cost of the cladding.
jje1000
Senior Member
There are also some more expensive window wall products that are cleaner in appearance (i.e. fewer mullions). More importantly, the design of the building should account for mullion spacing- patternless, unevenly spaced mullions look awful (i.e. on Aura or 300 Front). There are also other ways of minimizing the choppy appearance of spandrel, like emphasizing horizontal bands- something they could have done to a stronger effect here.
IMO, if they can't afford an all-vision glass building nor want to properly design their building to accommodate window wall, they should design the building to look like a punched window building.
The Britt's southern facade is one of the worst offenders of spandrel-pretending-to-be-vision-glass, as are several newer Concord and Tridel buildings, including this project. Conversely, the Livmore is probably the best instance of a window wall building in Toronto, and proof that the system can look good.
Trying to fake vision glass never brings about happy results- and is a strange inversion of modernist tenets where the exterior seeks to honestly reflect both its materiality and the interior program.
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AlbertC
Superstar
Feb 22, 2020
Waterfront
New Member
Livmore is a great spandrel example, but not because it has more glazing and less spandrel , but because it camouflages its spandrel panels well by using the right colour of spandrel and the right glass (more reflective glass, and less transparent in the lighter volumes, and darker glass in the dark volume to blend with vision glass. If you look closely (see image), the spandrel is there. Again, there’s no getting away from spandrel, as the building code demands better envelope performance and higher wall window ratio. There’s also another way you can achieve the camouflage and that is by making a deeper shadow box for the spandrel panels. When you can find the right colour (or use shadow box detail) to make the spandrel glass look vision, it makes the spacing of The mullion a lot easier as it is independent of the demising wall inside. It is not cheaper to have more spandrel than vision glass, (spandrel is a layer of glass with a layer of “coloured” wall behind) but it is more energy efficient. With regards to the horizontal mullions, surely it looks better to have no horizontal (eg mies TD tower), but you are required to have the horizontal for operable windows (awning), after all it is residential and we do not live in the 60s anymore where everything relies on mechanical systems. If compare livmore with lighthouse 1 & 2, the lighthouse condos actually have less horizontal than the livmore on sides that is not covered by balconies (one horizontal versus two horizontals on livmore for operable windows)
Finally, all window wall glazing is maxed out at 5’ interval for ease of shipping and installation. The only “more expensive” window wall system I know of is a hybrid window wall/curtain wall made by toro aluminum and that is what you see on the 10 york tridel building, not the livmore. I would love to know of a more “expensive” version of window wall, please pm me. I don’t know for sure but a rental building like the livmore usually has the same unit stacking throughout each floor, which makes aligning the mullions in each volume a lot easier than in a condo if the top unit has a different layout than the unit below.
There are a lot of good things one can say about the spandrel on the livmore versus one on the lighthouse condos but it has nothing to do with cost but more to do with program and how its design is intended. Just by saying the developer uses cheap glass as the main reason why you don’t like how the building looks is unfair. Those balcony details where they hang below the slab by at least a foot or more to make the circular pattern in fact are a premium, because they have to be two layers of glass laminated and held together by reinforced posts due to wind yet I don’t see many people acknowledging its value. Finally, lots of people here is suggesting punched windows for towers and just express how it is inside. Sounds good if you like towers to look like social housing built in the 50s and 60s. Look at Europe and Asia, or London Ontario, they have tons of high rises with punched windows due to the construction industry there, I’m not a fan. A mix of different language is always good no?
Full Metal Junkie
Active Member
A spandrel defender? A rarity in this forum, for sure 
As far as punched window architecture goes, it doesn't have to be as soulless as 50s-60s apartment blocs. One just have to look at the modern architecture of Nordic countries, which use punched windows almost exclusively due to energy efficiency reasons:
Oslo:
Copenhagen:
At the end of the day, I don't think the major complaint that people have about spandrel is related to how well it blends in with the glazing. It's just that glazing-spandrel buildings are so immaterial. With punched window design or just with replacing some of the spandrel with panels made from other materials (precast, brick, etc.), you end up giving a lot of materiality to your building. One doesn't have to look farther than Kingly condo tower for a perfect example of how the use of precast brick panels in addition to a window wall can immensely improve the overall architectural expression:
(photo by @salsa )
As far as these Daniel's Waterfront towers go, their only saving grace is the semi-opaque balcony glass giving at least somewhat of illusion of materiality. Though personally I'm not that impressed by the balcony glass either. And I'm still flabbergasted by the podium fins. Oh well, that's for the French University student's to deal with on a daily basis, not me.
As far as punched window architecture goes, it doesn't have to be as soulless as 50s-60s apartment blocs. One just have to look at the modern architecture of Nordic countries, which use punched windows almost exclusively due to energy efficiency reasons:
Oslo:
Copenhagen:
At the end of the day, I don't think the major complaint that people have about spandrel is related to how well it blends in with the glazing. It's just that glazing-spandrel buildings are so immaterial. With punched window design or just with replacing some of the spandrel with panels made from other materials (precast, brick, etc.), you end up giving a lot of materiality to your building. One doesn't have to look farther than Kingly condo tower for a perfect example of how the use of precast brick panels in addition to a window wall can immensely improve the overall architectural expression:
(photo by @salsa )
As far as these Daniel's Waterfront towers go, their only saving grace is the semi-opaque balcony glass giving at least somewhat of illusion of materiality. Though personally I'm not that impressed by the balcony glass either. And I'm still flabbergasted by the podium fins. Oh well, that's for the French University student's to deal with on a daily basis, not me.
urbanyimby
Active Member
what's the relevance to this thread?A spandrel defender? A rarity in this forum, for sure
As far as punched window architecture goes, it doesn't have to be as soulless as 50s-60s apartment blocs. One just have to look at the modern architecture of Nordic countries, which use punched windows almost exclusively due to energy efficiency reasons:
Oslo:
View attachment 233389
Copenhagen:
View attachment 233390
At the end of the day, I don't think the major complaint that people have about spandrel is related to how well it blends in with the glazing. It's just that glazing-spandrel buildings are so immaterial. With punched window design or just with replacing some of the spandrel with panels made from other materials (precast, brick, etc.), you end up giving a lot of materiality to your building. One doesn't have to look farther than Kingly condo tower for a perfect example of how the use of precast brick panels in addition to a window wall can immensely improve the overall architectural expression:
View attachment 233391
(photo by @salsa )
As far as these Daniel's Waterfront towers go, their only saving grace is the semi-opaque balcony glass giving at least somewhat of illusion of materiality. Though personally I'm not that impressed by the balcony glass either. And I'm still flabbergasted by the podium fins. Oh well, that's for the French University student's to deal with on a daily basis, not me.
Northern Light
Superstar
I, for one, would like to thank @Waterfront, @jje1000 and @Full Metal Junkie their Spandrel-filled exchanges in this thread! I enjoy this type of discussion, some real points, real examples etc, from people who are obviously knowledgeable about the product.