Toronto Crosstown LRT | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | Arcadis

[robmausser]

Ok, I am sure its been mentioned before but this is really on my mind, how is 15,000 ppdph ever going to be enough for the Crosstown (and that's only realistically the capacity of the tunneled section)?

To give some context in Vancouver the Canada Line has a similar max buildout capacity (though it's not fully utilized yet) and already carries almost 7k ppdph in the peak, that's with the trains at absolute crush load too, with the additional trains that were recently ordered capacity will be nearly 10k and the latent demand will likely fill that very quickly (people certainly avoid the line due to all the crowding). I cannot imagine how Eglinton will not suffer the exact same issues (and worse) given the density on Eglinton is already higher and I'm sure given the size of the GTA the redevelopment along the street will be even more significant than on Cambie (the street the Canada line runs under). Sure we might have enough capacity for day 1 but I really doubt it's going to be enough in even 20 years after the line opens.

Given that Vancouver is already trying to figure out how to fix the mess that is the Canada Line I really wonder if we should be questioning why we'd be going for such a low max capacity on such a significant project, it seems really risky . . .

I wonder if we will see the Line Split at Laird with the grade separated portion, fully automated (or operated automatically with attendants to satisfy the unions) and get new LRV's that operate as single vehicles, what kind of capacities could we push the line to if we did that and added platform screen doors etc?

Even before this, the underground Crosstown stations were designed to eventually fit 4 car length trains, with some modifications.

At the end of each platform are non-load bearing walls making up 2 areas for storage space. They can eventually be taken down and the platforms can be extended to accomodate 4 car Flexties.

Above ground stations can be lengthened obviously quite easily, just need to construct them.

Also the Crosstown is already going to be run with full ATC at launch

ATC

• Stands for Automatic Train Control. A remote controlled system in which train operations are controlled entirely by software from a centralized control room. Crosstown LRVs will operate with ATC.

http://thecrosstown.ca/CrosstownGlossary

 

[Kyle Campbell]

Even before this, the underground Crosstown stations were designed to eventually fit 4 car length trains, with some modifications.

At the end of each platform are non-load bearing walls making up 2 areas for storage space. They can eventually be taken down and the platforms can be extended to accomodate 4 car Flexties.

Above ground stations can be lengthened obviously quite easily, just need to construct them.

Also the Crosstown is already going to be run with full ATC at launch



http://thecrosstown.ca/CrosstownGlossary

Really, full ATC even on the surface sections? I thought the Metro line fiasco in Edmonton might have people considering otherwise, although in this case there's no crossing gates to synchronize, which I thought was the problem with Edmonton's line

 

[Amare]

The Crosstown will only be using ATC in the underground section, while the at-grade section will be manually operated.

 

[hw621]

The Crosstown will only be using ATC in the underground section, while the at-grade section will be manually operated.

And they will have to put drivers in the trains although they will have nothing to do for two thirds of the ride. Wise use of money.

 

[Amare]

And they will have to put drivers in the trains although they will have nothing to do for two thirds of the ride. Wise use of money.

I'd say it's a pretty wise move. For one, in case of emergency, the driver would be able to stop the vehicle especially these days where people seem to have a a loving fantasy of trespassing on track level.

It would also be pretty inefficient and a waste of time for drivers to be hoping on and off between the at-grade section, and the underground section. It's not like we have much of a choice here.

 

[micheal_can]

I'd say it's a pretty wise move. For one, in case of emergency, the driver would be able to stop the vehicle especially these days where people seem to have a a loving fantasy of trespassing on track level.

It would also be pretty inefficient and a waste of time for drivers to be hoping on and off between the at-grade section, and the underground section. It's not like we have much of a choice here.

Please look up Vancouver's Skytrain. They do not have drivers on their trains.

 

[Amare]

Please look up Vancouver's Skytrain. They do not have drivers on their trains.

Did i ever suggest there are rapid transit lines that operate without driver-less trains?

The Crosstown is a completely different beast due to the fact it operates underground and at-grade where it interacts with both vehicular traffic and pedestrians at intersections. Remind me again, does the Vancouver Skytrain operate in conditions like that? Didnt think so.

 

[micheal_can]

Did i ever suggest there are rapid transit lines that operate without driver-less trains?

The Crosstown is a completely different beast due to the fact it operates underground and at-grade where it interacts with both vehicular traffic and pedestrians at intersections. Remind me again, does the Vancouver Skytrain operate in conditions like that? Didnt think so.

You stated it was for emergencies in case someone is on the tracks. On the at grade sections, sure, but that is not what I was getting at. You could set it up that the worker leaves the train at the first station underground. Then let the train be driverless underground.

 

[Amare]

You stated it was for emergencies in case someone is on the tracks. On the at grade sections, sure, but that is not what I was getting at. You could set it up that the worker leaves the train at the first station underground. Then let the train be driverless underground.

And what exactly does that accomplish? They are still being paid regardless of if they are sitting in the train "doing nothing" or doing nothing and sitting in the platform waiting to drive trains in opposite direction before they reach they at-grade section.

All that would lead to are delays with changing the crew, which ultimately increases travel time. The more complicated you make operations, the greater the likelihood commuters will run into unnecessary delays.

 

[BurlOak]

And what exactly does that accomplish? They are still being paid regardless of if they are sitting in the train "doing nothing" or doing nothing and sitting in the platform waiting to drive trains in opposite direction before they reach they at-grade section.

All that would lead to are delays with changing the crew, which ultimately increases travel time. The more complicated you make operations, the greater the likelihood commuters will run into unnecessary delays.

Heading westbound, the driver gets off at Laird and the train continues west without them.
The driver then goes across the platform and hops on the next eastbound train to drive it.
They drive it to Kennedy, turn it around and come back to Laird.

Meanwhile, the “abandoned” train goes to Mount Dennis, turns itself around, and comes back to Laird.

The number of trains on the line depend on the length, speed, and frequency. (Say 30km track, avg speed of 30 means 1 hr round trip. If frequency is 5 minutes, you need 12 trains. = 30/30x60/5=12). The same thing applies to drivers, but you only need drivers for maybe 8km of the track, so you fewer drivers (8/30x60/5=5.3 - so round up to 6, in this example).

 

[hw621]

Heading westbound, the driver gets off at Laird and the train continues west without them.
The driver then goes across the platform and hops on the next eastbound train to drive it.
They drive it to Kennedy, turn it around and come back to Laird.

Meanwhile, the “abandoned” train goes to Mount Dennis, turns itself around, and comes back to Laird.

The number of trains on the line depend on the length, speed, and frequency. (Say 30km track, avg speed of 30 means 1 hr round trip. If frequency is 5 minutes, you need 12 trains. = 30/30x60/5=12). The same thing applies to drivers, but you only need drivers for maybe 8km of the track, so you fewer drivers (8/30x60/5=5.3 - so round up to 6, in this example).

Too complicated for the TTC

 

[drum118]

The first 2 spans to the east of Black Creek Dr have precast T beams in place for the new flyover. The next ones should go across Black Creek. Looks like all the concrete is poured for the new S section of Eglinton east of Black Creek and close to shifting the current traffic lanes to it. Once this is done, the portal can be built to allow the line to swing from under Eglinton to the north side for the flyover.

The retaining wall on the Kodak bridge was being poured on Thursday.

 

[TransitBart]

Too complicated for the TTC

Too bad. Seems reasonable.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Heading westbound, the driver gets off at Laird and the train continues west without them.
The driver then goes across the platform and hops on the next eastbound train to drive it.
They drive it to Kennedy, turn it around and come back to Laird.

Meanwhile, the “abandoned” train goes to Mount Dennis, turns itself around, and comes back to Laird.

The number of trains on the line depend on the length, speed, and frequency. (Say 30km track, avg speed of 30 means 1 hr round trip. If frequency is 5 minutes, you need 12 trains. = 30/30x60/5=12). The same thing applies to drivers, but you only need drivers for maybe 8km of the track, so you fewer drivers (8/30x60/5=5.3 - so round up to 6, in this example).

The driver will not "abandon" the train. They'll stay on as a "guard" as the Automatic Train Control takes over.

 

[Steve X]

If Doug Ford decides to takes over the subway, he could fire all the current unionized TTC workers and replace it with their own operations. This driverless idea isn't that far-fetched as you all think. Just like how he got ride of half the councilors with a stoke of a pen, he could do the same. The city of Toronto and the TTC simply exist because of Ontario and Ontario can take that away anytime.