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Crosstown LRT | ?m | ?s

DKsan

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That doesn't excuse the fact that there months before opening it is delayed a full year. Is Eglinton station the only issue stopping the completion of this project? If trains are able to bypass the station without passengers getting off, would that be a deal breaker?
It's been clarified that it's more than one station...but this is something Metrolinx should consider; other cities have done it before. The central Crossrail tunnel here in London opened without the key interchange at Bond Street which is opening in late October, four months after the line opened.
 

felix123

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It's been clarified that it's more than one station...but this is something Metrolinx should consider; other cities have done it before. The central Crossrail tunnel here in London opened without the key interchange at Bond Street which is opening in late October, four months after the line opened.
If London can do it, Toronto can too. Here's hoping ML/TTC will be open to trying something different.
 

T3G

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This topic has been beaten to death. It comes up every 15 minutes online. Crosslinx have already indicated they have zero intention of opening the line without its central interchange.
 

felix123

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This topic has been beaten to death. It comes up every 15 minutes online. Crosslinx have already indicated they have zero intention of opening the line without its central interchange.
And we can choose to discuss it as often as we like. I believe the last time Crosslinx said that was before the latest announced delay, which has no firm estimate.
 

sunnyside

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If Toronto wasn’t such a transfer oriented city, and if Yonge wasn’t the trunk it is, then I’d be fine with operating without it. Unfortunately GO is not really being used en masse yet by TTC users so nothing can pick up the slack right now without Yonge. As partially a downtown feeder route, Line 5 will be kinda useless to a lot of people without access to Line 1. Sure you can make circumferential “crosstown” or local trips, but most riders are expecting that after all this time the line may as well do it’s job.

The teething issues of opening a new line are also probably an issue for crosslinx and/or metrolinx; why deal with those while still building the most complex station, and dealing with the public on the lack of Yonge? Just seems like a nightmare for them. I get people want the line open, but opening without Yonge would seal that this is a failure to many in the public, I think. If they take the full year to finish it (I don’t see how that’s possible frankly, but I’m not on the project) then they’ll probably have it looking pristine. Operations will hopefully be mostly sorted out, all stations done, roadwork mostly done, etc. I get the impression metrolinx wants to avoid a further PR nightmare.
 

Diez Mil Cantos

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If Toronto wasn’t such a transfer oriented city, and if Yonge wasn’t the trunk it is, then I’d be fine with operating without it. Unfortunately GO is not really being used en masse yet by TTC users so nothing can pick up the slack right now without Yonge. As partially a downtown feeder route, Line 5 will be kinda useless to a lot of people without access to Line 1. Sure you can make circumferential “crosstown” or local trips, but most riders are expecting that after all this time the line may as well do it’s job.

The teething issues of opening a new line are also probably an issue for crosslinx and/or metrolinx; why deal with those while still building the most complex station, and dealing with the public on the lack of Yonge? Just seems like a nightmare for them. I get people want the line open, but opening without Yonge would seal that this is a failure to many in the public, I think. If they take the full year to finish it (I don’t see how that’s possible frankly, but I’m not on the project) then they’ll probably have it looking pristine. Operations will hopefully be mostly sorted out, all stations done, roadwork mostly done, etc. I get the impression metrolinx wants to avoid a further PR nightmare.
I think you are absolutely right about wanting to avoid that nightmare. Keep in mind that Metrolinx also has an example in Ottawa of what happens when you rush and cut the corners, so they probably don't want Line 5 to be the next Confederation Line.
The fact that they haven't announced a firm deadline could mean they open Finch first for the PR win
 

sunnyside

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I think you are absolutely right about wanting to avoid that nightmare. Keep in mind that Metrolinx also has an example in Ottawa of what happens when you rush and cut the corners, so they probably don't want Line 5 to be the next Confederation Line.
The fact that they haven't announced a firm deadline could mean they open Finch first for the PR win
It would absolutely be a win. I’m not sure how they’ll spin Line 5 being later though; “Its from before we knew what we were doing!” Or something to that effect.
 

nfitz

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If London can do it, Toronto can too. Here's hoping ML/TTC will be open to trying something different.
Bond Street is an interchange station - but the only other key Eglinton station is Eglinton West. The Elizabeth Line also had Paddington, Tottenham Court Road, Farrington, Liverpool Street, Canary Wharf, Stratford, and half of Whitechapel open. The only key interconnectivity that was missing was to the Jubilee line at Bond Street.

Of the 32 transfer connections in central London, 30 opened. And the transfer to the Central Line at Bond Street wasn't exactly critical, given you can also change to that line at the next station (Tottenham Court Road) - and even at Liverpool Street.

It's simply not comparable.

If Toronto wasn’t such a transfer oriented city ...
Toronto a transfer-oriented city? It's hard to think of a city that isn't, unless they only have one major line! London has almost 40 other lines intersecting the Elizabeth line (many of course cross it more than once), not including the innumerable national rail commuter lines. Crosstown has 3 for Phase 1. Once it's extended to Pearson it will still have 3! (6 if you count BRT and the Pearson Link train, that currently runs twice an hour).
 
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sunnyside

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Toronto a transfer-oriented city? It's hard to think of a city that isn't, unless they only have one major line! London has almost 40 other lines intersecting the Elizabeth line (many of course cross it more than once), not including the innumerable national rail commuter lines. Crosstown has 3 for Phase 1. Once it's extended to Pearson it will still have 3! (6 if you count BRT and the Pearson Link train, that currently runs twice an hour).
I did not mean the number of connections of a line. I meant that the existing subway network relies extremely heavily on [bus] transfers for ridership, and by optimizing these we often have prioritized linearity of our lines over breaking the grid for more one-seat rides, in ways many cities do not. It's the product of having a heavily gridded street network I suppose, and enables the consolidation of ridership onto the subway network. An easily observable example is when Line 2 didn't dip downtown, it went straight through on Bloor instead, forcing a transfer at b/y. In the far edges of Toronto, it's certainly not uncommon for someone to ride two buses and then get on the subway. The TTC has put significant effort into making sure such transfers are as smooth as possible. My point is that people are mostly going to get on the crosstown as they got on the bus here before; they will ride to Eg west/Yonge and transfer to get downtown, at least during peak. GO acts as an alternative, but TTC users aren't used to or willing to do that yet. We wouldn't open Line 2 without Bloor-Yonge open, would we?
 

felix123

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I did not mean the number of connections of a line. I meant that the existing subway network relies extremely heavily on [bus] transfers for ridership, and by optimizing these we often have prioritized linearity of our lines over breaking the grid for more one-seat rides, in ways many cities do not. It's the product of having a heavily gridded street network I suppose, and enables the consolidation of ridership onto the subway network. An easily observable example is when Line 2 didn't dip downtown, it went straight through on Bloor instead, forcing a transfer at b/y. In the far edges of Toronto, it's certainly not uncommon for someone to ride two buses and then get on the subway. The TTC has put significant effort into making sure such transfers are as smooth as possible. My point is that people are mostly going to get on the crosstown as they got on the bus here before; they will ride to Eg west/Yonge and transfer to get downtown, at least during peak. GO acts as an alternative, but TTC users aren't used to or willing to do that yet. We wouldn't open Line 2 without Bloor-Yonge open, would we?
You make a good point that Torontonians are used to a high number of transfers for trips, compared to a city like Sydney where transfers are uncommon for the typical commuter.
A partial line opening would not need to mean a decrease in existing bus services. I usually prefer a one-seat ride, but buses like the 32 are so awful that I'd rather ride crosstown for part of the trip if I had the option.
 

sunnyside

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You make a good point that Torontonians are used to a high number of transfers for trips, compared to a city like Sydney where transfers are uncommon for the typical commuter.
A partial line opening would not need to mean a decrease in existing bus services. I usually prefer a one-seat ride, but buses like the 32 are so awful that I'd rather ride crosstown for part of the trip if I had the option.
That’s a good point. If it’s advertised as a soft launch or partial opening, a la “we’re conducting public testing of the line”, I’d be open to it coming online early. “Come use the crosstown at select stations !” Would probably satiate the public’s appetite for the better service till Yonge opens.

Edits: hit send too soon.
 

ARG1

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It's been clarified that it's more than one station...but this is something Metrolinx should consider; other cities have done it before. The central Crossrail tunnel here in London opened without the key interchange at Bond Street which is opening in late October, four months after the line opened.
London is a completely different story since there are many key interchanges on the Elizabeth line. In fact, almost every station there is a "key interchange", so opening the line without one, not that big of a deal. The same can't be said about Toronto.
 

felix123

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Careful what you post in front of the mods!
Haha well it's on-topic and respectful, so I don't see why a mod would remove it.

To me it really depends on whether the crosstown is truly delayed for a year or longer, but if so I'd partially open it alongside existing bus service.
 

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