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Crosstown LRT | ?m | ?s

nfitz

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Should NOT turn this over to TTC to operate! Province is paying so GO should operate the LRT. Might smarten up both the TTC and its employees. .
Given Metrolinx's lack of commitment to provide as frequent service, surely this is a benefit to Torontonians.

Not to mention the lack of fare integration.

Wasn't this something that should have been complained about when the deal was signed - 7 years ago?

Congratulations on your first post?
 

EastYorkTTCFan

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Should NOT turn this over to TTC to operate! Province is paying so GO should operate the LRT. Might smarten up both the TTC and its employees. .
The TTC refused to supply buses to cover for line closer if they weren't operating it also Metrolinx doesn't have the number of buses that would be needed for that available to them in the city of Toronto. Also, they have no experience operating anything like this, having Metrolinx operate it on their own I could see it having problems like Ottawa does, having the TTC operate both this and Fich West you have people who have experience operating transit in the city of Toronto. I know that there are people who love to hate the TTC and say how terrible it is but if you look at other city systems it isn't as bad as people make it out to b.
 

Steve X

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The TTC refused to supply buses to cover for line closer if they weren't operating it also Metrolinx doesn't have the number of buses that would be needed for that available to them in the city of Toronto. Also, they have no experience operating anything like this, having Metrolinx operate it on their own I could see it having problems like Ottawa does, having the TTC operate both this and Fich West you have people who have experience operating transit in the city of Toronto. I know that there are people who love to hate the TTC and say how terrible it is but if you look at other city systems it isn't as bad as people make it out to b.
The TTC was safe in the Wynne era. Ford could have uploaded the entire TTC and merged it with Metrolinx if they really wanted. Then hand the bill to TO for all the expenses.

The operating agreement is only for 10 years folk. It's up to ML to extend it so they can revoke it if they want. I bet if TTC fails to meet certain requirements, ML would be in the rights to terminate the agreement. It could be really ugly, just wrap up and package nicely to say ML and TTC are cooperating in a "friendly" way. Both MSFs can disconnect from TTC HQ and become an independent control centre.

The whole TTC takes care of the operation part is they keep all the fares and pay all the expenses to operate it. Money flows from city/TTC > Queen's Park > ML > Crosslinx to pay for the daily maintenances. If TTC dispatches shuttle buses, the are paying out of their own pocket. It also solves the transfer issue regarding how much should be the LRT line's revenue.
 
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Townie

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Apologies if this is a stupid question: Why aren't the Crosstown trains red & white, like other public transit vehicles in Toronto? And why are the Crosstown stations marked with a giant, black & white "T" sign, instead of the well-known identifier of the TTC logo? What does the "T" stand for, anyway? Transit? Toronto? Tommy the Tank Engine? Isn't this confusing for transit users? Is it because the trains are "owned" by Metrolinx? Most people don't know or care what Metrolinx is. They know and understand TTC (red & white) and GO (green & white) and their specific areas of operation.
 

TRONto

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Apologies if this is a stupid question: Why aren't the Crosstown trains red & white, like other public transit vehicles in Toronto? And why are the Crosstown stations marked with a giant, black & white "T" sign, instead of the well-known identifier of the TTC logo? What does the "T" stand for, anyway? Transit? Toronto? Tommy the Tank Engine? Isn't this confusing for transit users? Is it because the trains are "owned" by Metrolinx? Most people don't know or care what Metrolinx is. They know and understand TTC (red & white) and GO (green & white) and their specific areas of operation.
You got it. These decisions are made at the whims of Metrolinx
 

T3G

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I still find their choice of livery shocking. If memory serves, the original ideas thrown around called for green and white (?) trains, which would've been far more visually appealing than this grey on grey on grey dreck, even if it would cause the intellectually challenged to confuse it with a big honking GO Train.

I do not understand this modern era at all. It seems that the only objective is to make everything around you look as dull and dreary and depressing as possible. To match the times, perhaps? Not that I particularly enjoy 70s era kitsch but I would welcome that a million times over instead of grey/white & black/anthracite everything.
 

nfitz

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Not that I particularly enjoy 70s era kitsch but I would welcome that a million times over instead of grey/white & black/anthracite everything.
I've commented about that about the ugly white to grey to black "colour" schemes in the office - particularly all the white counters and stuff that won't wear well - and they all look at me like I'm from a previous century ...

... no wonder no one wants to work in an office any more! :)
 

MisterF

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The TTC, Metrolinx, and the suburban systems should all be merged into a single regional system. That's the way it works in most cities that operate mass transit properly. These stupid little turf wars and competing standards are a big part of what's wrong with transportation in Toronto.
Apologies if this is a stupid question: Why aren't the Crosstown trains red & white, like other public transit vehicles in Toronto? And why are the Crosstown stations marked with a giant, black & white "T" sign, instead of the well-known identifier of the TTC logo? What does the "T" stand for, anyway? Transit? Toronto? Tommy the Tank Engine? Isn't this confusing for transit users? Is it because the trains are "owned" by Metrolinx? Most people don't know or care what Metrolinx is. They know and understand TTC (red & white) and GO (green & white) and their specific areas of operation.
To be fair, using the TTC corporate logo to identify subway stations has always been a flawed idea. The TTC logo identifies everything from streetcars to buses to TTC offices. Most cities use a simple M or T or some other distinctive logo to identify rapid transit.

For example, there's nothing at this station entrance that says it's a subway station. Sure, it shows the line numbers but to someone unfamiliar with the system those are meaningless. All they would know from looking at the signs is that the TTC runs it and buses go there. In Montreal, OTOH, when you see a big down arrow you know exactly what you're getting.
 

T3G

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The TTC, Metrolinx, and the suburban systems should all be merged into a single regional system. That's the way it works in most cities that operate mass transit properly. These stupid little turf wars and competing standards are a big part of what's wrong with transportation in Toronto.
I know this idea has been thrown around a fair bit, but I'm personally dubious as to the benefits a system of this scale would end up generating, with the sole exception of simplifying cross border boundaries, allowing for smooth travel across urban boundaries rather than the silly cat and mouse games the various towns and agencies engage in right now.

I get the appeal and it definitely makes sense in a place of a certain scale, but I think that the GTA is far too large and sprawling, and with far too many competing needs and interests, to make this a viable course of action or to even result in any real tangible change. The needs of transit in downtown Toronto, or even along a more frequent suburban line in the outer boroughs of Toronto, are very different than the needs of transit out in Milton (though I wouldn't protest to having transit that runs 7 days a week out here!) Outside of a few cross border routes, which could also be solved by improving the frequency of the GO bus and not letting CP Rail hold commuters in Milton and Mississauga hostage, I don't think there would be that many changes to the route network... not like you'd see the 32/34 Eglinton buses extended deep into Mississauga or Milton, the route would become far too long to be run reliably and would necessitate a transfer anyway.

Inter-agency cooperation, and nixing nonsense laws like the ones that only permit the TTC to carry passengers within Toronto, would go a long way towards improving cross border travel in the region without having to spend money on rebranding and what have you.
 

nfitz

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The TTC, Metrolinx, and the suburban systems should all be merged into a single regional system. That's the way it works in most cities that operate mass transit properly.
Other than Translink, I'm struggling to find good North American examples of a big city that does that. Even New York City has a different agency for one of the subway lines in Manhattan - not to mention across the river. Seattle too operates their LRT through different governments - not to mention their commuter trains. Montreal has several agencies.

The problem many fear is the lack of decent service standards in a regional agency that isn't beholden to locally elected oversight. That off-peak some of their subway service only goes every 20 minutes is a disgrace. It will be interesting to see how the Hamilton and Hurontario LRT frequencies compare to Line 5 and Line 6. Though it's not clear just who is going to be operating those lines - are those cities even paying operating costs?
 
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MisterF

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I know this idea has been thrown around a fair bit, but I'm personally dubious as to the benefits a system of this scale would end up generating, with the sole exception of simplifying cross border boundaries, allowing for smooth travel across urban boundaries rather than the silly cat and mouse games the various towns and agencies engage in right now.

I get the appeal and it definitely makes sense in a place of a certain scale, but I think that the GTA is far too large and sprawling, and with far too many competing needs and interests, to make this a viable course of action or to even result in any real tangible change. The needs of transit in downtown Toronto, or even along a more frequent suburban line in the outer boroughs of Toronto, are very different than the needs of transit out in Milton (though I wouldn't protest to having transit that runs 7 days a week out here!) Outside of a few cross border routes, which could also be solved by improving the frequency of the GO bus and not letting CP Rail hold commuters in Milton and Mississauga hostage, I don't think there would be that many changes to the route network... not like you'd see the 32/34 Eglinton buses extended deep into Mississauga or Milton, the route would become far too long to be run reliably and would necessitate a transfer anyway.

Inter-agency cooperation, and nixing nonsense laws like the ones that only permit the TTC to carry passengers within Toronto, would go a long way towards improving cross border travel in the region without having to spend money on rebranding and what have you.
The transit needs of downtown Toronto have been neglected in favour of the suburbs since the 1960s, so it's not like the current system isn't already resulting in the problems you're talking about. You can't blame Metrolinx or other agencies for that. A transit agency can handle large areas with diverse needs and still be effective. As I said, it's how most cities operate.

Other than Translink, I'm struggling to find good North American examples of a big city that does that. Even New York City has a different agency for one of the subway lines in Manhattan - not to mention across the river. Seattle too operates their LRT through different governments - not to mention their commuter trains. Montreal has several agencies.

The problem many fear is the lack of decent service standards in a regional agency that isn't beholden to locally elected oversight. That off-peak some of their subway service only goes every 20 minutes is a disgrace. It will be interesting to see how the Hamilton and Hurontario LRT frequencies compare to Line 5 and Line 6. Though it's not clear just who is going to be operating those lines - are those cities even paying operating costs?
If we only look to North America for inspiration then we're dooming ourselves to mediocrity forever. North America is very small and insular in a lot of ways. We should be looking at the entire world, or at least other democracies. New York is great but it's not the pinnacle of everything and there are better ways of organizing mass transit than how they do it.
 

nfitz

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The transit needs of downtown Toronto have been neglected in favour of the suburbs since the 1960s, so it's not like the current system isn't already resulting in the problems you're talking about. You can't blame Metrolinx or other agencies for that. A transit agency can handle large areas with diverse needs and still be effective. As I said, it's how most cities operate.

If we only look to North America for inspiration then we're dooming ourselves to mediocrity forever. North America is very small and insular in a lot of ways.
We need to look at places with similar populations densities and sprawl - it's hard to see too many examples of that. Even in parts of North America like Mexico!

The experiences in a much denser location like London aren't comparable; even there, by the time you hit the end of some of the TfL lines, you are dealing with different transit agencies running buses. And the commuter trains into central London STILL aren't under one organization - some are for-profit services!
 

T3G

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The transit needs of downtown Toronto have been neglected in favour of the suburbs since the 1960s, so it's not like the current system isn't already resulting in the problems you're talking about. You can't blame Metrolinx or other agencies for that. A transit agency can handle large areas with diverse needs and still be effective. As I said, it's how most cities operate.
Looking at the service frequencies of the any individual branch of lines like the 37, 40, 45, 52, 95, or 96, I'm not really sure that anyone came out the winner.

I guess I just don't see what the point would be in rebranding, consolidating, and having to upgrade systems and update paperwork for a merger of various agencies, when improving service frequencies and cross-border travel would achieve much the same results and be less of a headache.
 

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