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Crosstown LRT | ?m | ?s

Johnny Au

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November 5, 2021 at Mount Dennis Station:

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Pics of the LRV:
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W. K. Lis

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11 or maybe even 12 years of construction for a line that stops at red lights on the surface sections. 🤦‍♂️
That's because the automobile loving councillors, politicians, and bureaucrats have vetoed any real improvements to true transit priority traffic signals.The single-occupant motor vehicles must go first when they make a left turn.

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From link.
 

nfitz

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11 or maybe even 12 years of construction for a line that stops at red lights on the surface sections. 🤦‍♂️
That's a bit unfair - they didn't start the surface section for years after tunnelled section - and it's already finished. If they'd done the whole thing at surface (which wasn't really an option through Yonge) they'd have been finished years ago.

Compare to FInch Line 6 - construction is moving MUCH faster - even with the cut-and-cover underground terminals.
 

iliamerk

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That's because the automobile loving councillors, politicians, and bureaucrats have vetoed any real improvements to true transit priority traffic signals.The single-occupant motor vehicles must go first when they make a left turn.

To be fair, there are good reasons why the left-turn phase precedes the through phase. Fully protected left turns become necessary when we implement centre running LRTs and streetcars at intersections, since you can't have an automobile turn left in the path of the transit vehicle. Ontario doesn't use lagging left-turn phases because they pose many disadvantages including safety and operational. Leading lefts are predictable and allow the queues to clear at the beginning of the phase so that through vehicles aren't waiting, plus you avoid the "yellow trap" when left turn phases start at different times.

Further, having the LRT through phase as a dedicated phase while no other vehicles are processed through the intersection is very inefficient. My understanding is that TSP still exists along the line in the form of shortened conflicting phases when the LRT is waiting and extended through phases when the LRT is nearing the intersection at the end of its cycle. Sure, we will still have the LRT waiting for advance left turn phases during some specific arrival times, but having lagging left turns just isn't Ontario policy for the reasons mentioned above. This is just one of the disadvantages of at-grade LRTs.
 

crs1026

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My understanding is that TSP still exists along the line in the form of shortened conflicting phases when the LRT is waiting and extended through phases when the LRT is nearing the intersection at the end of its cycle. Sure, we will still have the LRT waiting for advance left turn phases during some specific arrival times, but having lagging left turns just isn't Ontario policy for the reasons mentioned above. This is just one of the disadvantages of at-grade LRTs.
Is there any reason why the signalling can't be set up to detect a waiting (as opposed to approaching) LRV and give it a through signal ahead of the left turn signal, only when there is an LRV waiting.... if not, just proceed directly to the green arrow for left turn vehicles?

- Paul
 

innsertnamehere

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Is there any reason why the signalling can't be set up to detect a waiting (as opposed to approaching) LRV and give it a through signal ahead of the left turn signal, only when there is an LRV waiting.... if not, just proceed directly to the green arrow for left turn vehicles?

- Paul
The central track requires "dedicated" left turn cycles - i.e. a specific advanced left then when the general green phase is activated left turns are prohibited.

So if you don't provide the dedicated left turn cycle to prioritize LRVs, you basically force the left turn cycle to wait an entire signal cycle as they can't be shifted to the "end" of the cycle.

To provide greater priority to LRVs, you would have to figure out an alternative method of accommodating left turns. If the city was smart they would have investigated Michigan lefts or provided a right turn then U turn movement at major intersections to remove the left turn cycle at major roadways.
 

W. K. Lis

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Is there any reason why the signalling can't be set up to detect a waiting (as opposed to approaching) LRV and give it a through signal ahead of the left turn signal, only when there is an LRV waiting.... if not, just proceed directly to the green arrow for left turn vehicles?

- Paul
Why left turn traffic signals first? There are jurisdictions where the left turners have to wait till the end of the straight traffic or pedestrians. In Ontario, they HAVE to give the left turning single-occupant motorists priority. That has to change. Can't the signals change depending upon the approaching or waiting light rail vehicles? Or is that too complicated for the bureaucrats.
 

Tuscani01

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Why left turn traffic signals first? There are jurisdictions where the left turners have to wait till the end of the straight traffic or pedestrians. In Ontario, they HAVE to give the left turning single-occupant motorists priority. That has to change. Can't the signals change depending upon the approaching or waiting light rail vehicles? Or is that too complicated for the bureaucrats.
Spadina and Lakeshore has the left turn phase last, so its not like we don't already have it in Toronto.
 

TorontoBun

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RE: Left turns, I'd believe that only the transit signal should go green for the LRV(s) to cross before going back to red. Then the left turn phase can proceed as timed before the rest of traffic is allowed to cross.
It shouldn't be complicated and would help in providing some semblance of transit priority.

Ideally, the transit signal should be allowed to go green on any of the phases where all lights are red, since the delay to traffic shouldn't take more than the time it takes for an LRV to cross the intersection.
 

MisterF

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LRT with complete priority over other traffic isn't some unheard of concept, we've had it in Canada since the 1970s. And those cities have trains running every 4-5 minutes in peak hours, which means that each of those intersections sees a train every 2 minutes. If they can do it on suburban arterials there, there's no reason why we can't the same here.

That's a bit unfair - they didn't start the surface section for years after tunnelled section - and it's already finished. If they'd done the whole thing at surface (which wasn't really an option through Yonge) they'd have been finished years ago.

Compare to FInch Line 6 - construction is moving MUCH faster - even with the cut-and-cover underground terminals.
The problem is that the unreliability of the surface section will affect how the underground section operates. For this amount of time and money it could have been designed properly.
 

superelevation

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That's a bit unfair - they didn't start the surface section for years after tunnelled section - and it's already finished. If they'd done the whole thing at surface (which wasn't really an option through Yonge) they'd have been finished years ago.

Compare to FInch Line 6 - construction is moving MUCH faster - even with the cut-and-cover underground terminals.


There is *no* reason it couldn't have been on the surface at Yonge, the street is plenty wide.
 

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