Toronto Crosstown LRT | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | Arcadis

[dowlingm]

How many different types of rolling stock does the city of Toronto require? So now we have to train mechanics to maintain every different type of train, and train drivers to operate every different type of train. Order different parts/ components for all the different rolling stock. What a nightmare to manage. More people on the government payroll to oversee all of this.

Two points I would make here, as economy of scale flits into and out of a lot of these discussions.

1. When it suits, such economies are overlooked. Canada Line, having different DMUs for Ottawa Line 2 and 4, UPX cars and now Guelph-Cambridge BEMUs. On the flip side, economy of scale was used to sell the TTC 600 car mega order for uptown and downtown LRVs for Transit City to ensure Thunder Bay got all the work and look how that worked out. Even if the uptown work had been separately tendered it would have created a light rail order of a size roughly that of the entire US light rail fleet - and there’s a good chance the assembly plant might have been located somewhere close enough that Torontonians could work at it* or even have the vehicles driven out of an assembly plant convertible to an MSF**

2. Different vehicles are not necessarily that different. LRVs these days are an assembly of components - electrical, motors, seating, lighting - from a global supply chain. I would love to know what overlap there is between Citadis Spirit and Flexity Freedom but I doubt it’s zero. Additionally, there may not be much choice but to use a common supplier in some situations where a country has only one supply of a specific part but that part is the most convenient one to select for national-content-percentage purposes.

* this is not necessarily a guarantee of a good product - see BYD Newmarket and their vehicles’ woes at TTC
** again not a guarantee of a good outcome - see Ottawa

 

[Bojaxs]

** again not a guarantee of a good outcome - see Ottawa

Ottawa is not a good example of standardization not working because everyone, including Alstom themselves was telling the City of Ottawa that the trains they wanted wouldn't work properly on the line.

It's not a case against standardization. It's a case of city officials ignoring all the experts and gunning ahead regardless.

 

[Steve X]

Ottawa LRVs couldn't even run on any ML LRT lines or the ION. Somehow they chose 1500V DC oppose to the standard 750V DC. The Citadis was suppose to be the backup car for the crosstown so they should at least be able top run on the line manually.

 

[Bojaxs]

If all vehicles operate at the same speed,

Does this mean trains going through the underground and grade separated portions of the line will be relegated to travel at the same speed as the trains travelling along the eastern/ at grade portion of the line?

What I mean is that noone suggests digging up and rebuilding Line 1 because of those problems.

I don't think it's necessary to combat slow zones by digging up the track and rebuilding the entire line.


I was wrong about the voltage. Both Finch and Eglinton will use 750DC. I previously asked in this thread if it was possible to connect both lines in the future. Someone had responded to me that it wouldn't be possible to connect the lines because both use different voltage.
So would it be possible to connect both the Eglinton line and Finch line at some point in the future? Perhaps at Toronto Pearson airport?

 

[fanoftoronto]

Does this mean trains going through the underground and grade separated portions of the line will be relegated to travel at the same speed as the trains travelling along the eastern/ at grade portion of the line?



I don't think it's necessary to combat slow zones by digging up the track and rebuilding the entire line.


I was wrong about the voltage. Both Finch and Eglinton will use 750DC. I previously asked in this thread if it was possible to connect both lines in the future. Someone had responded to me that it wouldn't be possible to connect the lines because both use different voltage.
So would it be possible to connect both the Eglinton line and Finch line at some point in the future? Perhaps at Toronto Pearson airport?

Eglinton crosstown and Finch West LRT use different signalling systems that are incompatible for interoperability.

So, short answer is no, the LRVs will not be able to interchange at Pearson right away.

That being said, the Pearson connection is at least 10-15 years away and Metrolinx may invest in a way to allow for interoperability. At a minimum, I believe they will include crossover tracks at Pearson to eventually be used to interline the trains once the signalling system is figured out.

The other issue is platform length. The 2-car Crosstown LRVs with a total length of 60m will not fit on the Finch surface platforms which are currently only 45m long. Either the Finch platforms have to be extended or the trailing Crosstown car in the Crosstown 2-car set will have a couple of its doors out of service when travelling on Finch.

 

[T3G]

oes this mean trains going through the underground and grade separated portions of the line will be relegated to travel at the same speed as the trains travelling along the eastern/ at grade portion of the line?

No, they just need to maintain a constant rate of speed in relation to other cars on the line.

You can try this out for yourself with another person: start running from point A, then you walk normally onwards from point B. Have a second person follow 30 seconds later, maintaining the same rate of speed. The only way they would catch up with you is if they continued running past point B.

 

[smallspy]

I believe mechanics are generally supplied by the manufacturer as part of the purchase. I get standardization of the track widths, but standardization of rolling stock means less flexibility and a greater chance of a systemwide problem. If all Flexity trains were found to have a potentially fatal flaw in them, our entire streetcar system would be shut down right now (ahem, moreso than it currently is). If the Toronto Rockets had a similar type of flaw, we could at least pull the old T1s onto the Yonge line and provide at least some semblance of service for a while. Having mixed stock is an advantage.

This is absolutely, positively the wrong way to view it.

If all of the equipment is the same, all of the parts, tools, techniques etc. can be the same - leading to savings. You're not buying spare parts for multiple different fleets. You're not having to provide new tools for the same. You're not having to train your employees to operate and maintain multiple types of equipment.

It is more cost efficient to take the known savings of standardization against the potential (and unlikely) costs of your "flexibility".

Likewise, costs go up with standardized stock. Once you're set with a particular stock, you're stuck with it. No leverage for better pricing, no incremental improvements in the vehicles, etc. And the manufacturer knows that. You'll end up paying more in the long run.

If this was somehow the case, mass production wouldn't be a thing.

No, standardization saves money - both up-front in terms of purchasing (buying more of the same thing is cheaper than buying fewer of custom stuff), and over the long term (fewer parts to have to stock, simplified maintenance techniques, less training, etc.)

In Europe, standardized stock is not very common across an entire system, and we should be following their example in transit value for money.

Again, absolutely not the case. Why do you think that Berlin just got 200 of the same type of streetcar? 20 years ago, Portugal rebuilt 3 different kinds of regional EMU and standardized them all into one homogeneous fleet - with the resultant cost savings and service improvements that went with it.

Dan

 

[Allandale25]

I can't find a YouTube livestream video of today's press conference related to OL station construction, but the media naturally asked about Crosstown and here is what Phil Verster said. Unfortunately, without the video we don't have the verbatim quotes cc @Northern Light

• NEW: Metrolinx CEO Phil Verster says they are “relentlessly progressing” towards an opening date for the Eglinton LRT. Verster says there have been some “significant milestones” and they are now in the 4th week of operator driver training.
• 36/40 occupancy permits have now been issued, Verster says, but he is not giving us a date for the opening of the LRT. Verster said “speculating on a date creates fictitious deadlines.”
• Verster says speculation on dates “gets us into a messy place.”He says the province “will declare a date as soon as we can”
• We asked Transportation Minister Prabmeet Sarkaria about specific accountability measures the Ford government has taken with Metrolinx re: Eglinton LRT. The minister says the gov’t has taken “learnings” and changed its process. But no accountability actions taken.

^ Tweets from Colin D'Mello

 

[Allandale25]

^ And as a reminder of what the dashboard looks like, this was from one year ago from this: https://assets.metrolinx.com/image/...x/ECLRT_Briefing_Deck_-_September_27_2023.pdf

From February on Occupancy Permits: https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threads/toronto-crosstown-lrt-m-s-metrolinx-arcadis.11782/post-2047191 (and if you search this thread for "occupancy permits" you can see the progress where people have posted it when the info was publicly mentioned. Haven't searched in the thread for the other dashboard items. Software is the big one).

 

[unrealestate]

5 years late on a 10 year project

 

[Voltz]

5 years late on a 10 year project

Nine years late now, on when the TTC was going to open the first phase of the line back when it was their project.

 

[generalcanada]

I can't find a YouTube livestream video of today's press conference related to OL station construction, but the media naturally asked about Crosstown and here is what Phil Verster said. Unfortunately, without the video we don't have the verbatim quotes cc @Northern Light

• NEW: Metrolinx CEO Phil Verster says they are “relentlessly progressing” towards an opening date for the Eglinton LRT. Verster says there have been some “significant milestones” and they are now in the 4th week of operator driver training.
• 36/40 occupancy permits have now been issued, Verster says, but he is not giving us a date for the opening of the LRT. Verster said “speculating on a date creates fictitious deadlines.”
• Verster says speculation on dates “gets us into a messy place.”He says the province “will declare a date as soon as we can”
• We asked Transportation Minister Prabmeet Sarkaria about specific accountability measures the Ford government has taken with Metrolinx re: Eglinton LRT. The minister says the gov’t has taken “learnings” and changed its process. But no accountability actions taken.

^ Tweets from Colin D'Mello

LOL no new permits since June wtf is up with those 4 occupancy permits

 

[Allandale25]

Nine years late now, on when the TTC was going to open the first phase of the line back when it was their project.

When/how was it considered 'their' project - just for clarity, are you referring to the Transit City/City's EA days?

 

[nfitz]

When/how was it considered 'their' project - just for clarity, are you referring to the Transit City/City's EA days?

It was TTC's project well past the EA. The tunnelling contract was developed by TTC, and Metrolinx just assumed control. That's when things went wrong, as there was a many-year delay for Metrolinx to put together the RFP for the stations and systems. In addition to the delay in finalizing the tunnelling contract.

 

[pw20]

I think I've figured it out!! They're timing the opening of the Eglinton Crosstown to mark the 40 year anniversary from Network 2011, which was published in 1985. Network 2011 was the first call for higher order transit on Eglinton. So if you think about it - it's not 5 years late on a 10 year project, it's ~40 years late