Toronto Crosstown LRT | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | Arcadis

[Cobra]

Let's remember 44,000 daily riders don't warrants a subway. Dufferin is quite crowded in most parts of the day. TTC has also reduced service (on paper) on the 29 with artics and additional round trip times. It is suppose to reflect actual travel times and more of the advertised service is operated.

You can't use that number to determine if Dufferin needs a subway or not. The route is so terrible that many take eastbound bus routes to the Spadina subway instead. I could see it on St. Clair streetcar every morning when I was in the area.

A Dufferin subway will most likely take people away from the east-west bus/streetcar routes. That will not only reduce crowding and horrendous service but increase the ridership on Dufferin that would be much higher that 44k daily. People find alternatives to routes that gets overcrowded and have bad service.

It's another symptom of this city lack of subways.

 

[BMO]

I see all the time at Dufferin station "southbound" the buse gets empty so passengers gets on the Bloor line, however the line ups to go further south is just as bad. The line is overcrowded south of Bloor as well. Eglinton LRT won't fix that

As someone who takes the Dufferin bus every day from around Eglinton to King, it gets super busy south of Eglinton with a bunch of transfers onto the route from Eglinton buses. This is actually compounded by the fact that construction is going on at Allen Rd so it's either spend 10-15 minutes getting from Dufferin to Eglinton West Station, or spend 15-20 minutes to get to Bloor. Very few people transfer to St. Clair because it's so slow. So you basically have a bunch of people piling on until Bloor to get over to the Spadina/Yonge lines. I think Eglinton Xtown will alleviate a good portion of this, but there's still a tremendous amount of demand south of Bloor as it services the Liberty Village employment area ( I imagine people prefer to take the 29 instead of take the King Streetcar).

 

[OneCity]

I question why they couldn't have started the above ground portions in the far East and West portions of the line while they've been tunnelling? Certainly that ship has sailed but if the extensions are approved I would hope we can attempt to be efficient enough to have multiple contracts going at the same time.

 

[Palma]

Not to derail this even further, but I totally agree.

There are a few things that are fairly clear at this point.

• Dufferin Bus is way over-capacity, it needs an alternative solution.
• Massive development is underway along the Dufferin corridor at points between Eglinton and Bloor, potentially totally overwhelming the Dufferin 29 Route.
• LRT won't work on Dufferin because it would have to be tunneled. LRT is a non-solution.
• Bloor line west of St. George and the Spadina line will need relief by 2035 projections.

This points to me that a subway line under Dufferin has the potential to solve multiple factors at once. Providing rapid transit to Dufferin corridor (which is needed) and providing relief to Spadina line (which is needed).

Plus with the Finch LRT hitting Dufferin St, will eliiminate people going over to Finch and Yonge and may relieve the Yonge line

 

[Palma]

I'd like a more detailed analysis of the Dufferin bus, because I am not sure how true that is. Just looking at basic residential density, it seems fairly obvious that the majority of ridership (and potential ridership) is between Bloor and Eglinton. I don't take the Dufferin line myself, but I hear from people who do that it is packed and yet many people are trying to squeeze on still in between Eglinton and Bloor.

Now it could be true that many people use the bus from Yorkdale to Eglinton (someone in the last page made mention that it is already packed by the time it reaches Eglinton) and that they will get off on the Crosstown. But that doesn't say that ridership would be poor south of Eglinton. Remember, we are talking about a 44,000 a day bus route.


Well it is not really a mystery is it? Scarborough subways are all politics.

And the west side already got their relief line through Spadina. It is a testament to the ridership on the west side that now we are in need of a second relief line.

So anything west of Yonge is considered the west side but you can't be serious to say this

 

[Zach6668]

I question why they couldn't have started the above ground portions in the far East and West portions of the line while they've been tunnelling? Certainly that ship has sailed but if the extensions are approved I would hope we can attempt to be efficient enough to have multiple contracts going at the same time.

Well, for one, it's still being designed.

Secondly, there's no point. It's not like the underground stations are going to be complete, sitting empty for months or years while they work on the at-grade segments. There's no point in starting the construction yet. It won't take all that long to build.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Well, for one, it's still being designed.

Secondly, there's no point. It's not like the underground stations are going to be complete, sitting empty for months or years while they work on the at-grade segments. There's no point in starting the construction yet. It won't take all that long to build.

That would be like finishing the landscaping of a house and paving the driveway, when they only just finished pouring the foundation (no framing).

 

[OneCity]

That would be like finishing the landscaping of a house and paving the driveway, when they only just finished pouring the foundation (no framing).

Not even close with that analogy. It more like building 2 houses but instead of building both at once you only build one at a time

Valid point by Zach6668 as its still being designed which is my greater concern that it leaves Political room to be delayed on details

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

So anything west of Yonge is considered the west side but you can't be serious to say this

Not really sure what you mean.

 

[salsa]

I question why they couldn't have started the above ground portions in the far East and West portions of the line while they've been tunnelling? Certainly that ship has sailed but if the extensions are approved I would hope we can attempt to be efficient enough to have multiple contracts going at the same time.

The east extension was supposed to be funded with the savings from watering down the previous 3-stop subway plan. But just one year later, the cost has gone up so much that the subway is on track to consume the entire budget for Scarborough transit. Meanwhile the mayor has other priorities like SmartTrack, Gardiner and RL, so at this point Crosstown East is about as likely to happen as Rail Deck Park.

 

[innsertnamehere]

The east extension was supposed to be funded with the savings from watering down the previous 3-stop subway plan. But just one year later, the cost has gone up so much that the subway is on track to consume the entire budget for Scarborough transit. Meanwhile the mayor has other priorities like SmartTrack, Gardiner and RL, so at this point Crosstown East is about as likely to happen as Rail Deck Park.

My understanding is that most of the "cost increases" have largely come from accounting changes, not real expenditure changes. The original cost quotes were done in unescalated dollars, while the new one is escalated, which makes it seem more expensive, but in reality its the same.

 

[salsa]

My understanding is that most of the "cost increases" have largely come from accounting changes, not real expenditure changes. The original cost quotes were done in unescalated dollars, while the new one is escalated, which makes it seem more expensive, but in reality its the same.

But does the available funding increase to account for that escalation in cost?

 

[Voltz]

My understanding is that most of the "cost increases" have largely come from accounting changes, not real expenditure changes. The original cost quotes were done in unescalated dollars, while the new one is escalated, which makes it seem more expensive, but in reality its the same.

I've never heard that, where was it mentioned?

 

[innsertnamehere]

But does the available funding increase to account for that escalation in cost?

yes. The Province listed the Crosstown LRT as $4.9 billion in 2010 dollars, but the actual contract signed was closer to $7 billion IIRC.

Its the same reason its not fair to compare the $3.2 billion cost to the $1.5 billion cost for the LRT option, as the LRT price tag is not escalated. The TTC published an estimated escalated cost of the LRT, and it was something like $2.5 billion. Supporters of the LRT called it bullcrap of course, refusing to believe those numbers. Apparently the LRT is immune from cost changes but the subway is possible to see infinite increases into the trillions.

Its why the original pricetag on the subway was so low, as it was in 2010 unescalated dollars for councillors to compare between the two projects. They switched to escalated dollars after the vote as that is how it is normally financed. TorStar with its vendetta against the project just ran with it making it seem like a huge cost escalation, while the truth was that it was really just an accounting change.

There has been a small "real" increase in costs, from $2.9 billion escalated to $3.2 billion escalated. There was an initial jump from $2 billion to $2.9 billion, which was the accounting change, then it went to $3.2 billion, which was a "real" cost overrun.

Besides, costing changes are expected at that stage as the cost estimates were extremely preliminary in those original decisions.

 

[innsertnamehere]

I've never heard that, where was it mentioned?

in the staff reports at the time, I'm too lazy to go find them again.