Toronto Concord Sky | 299m | 85s | Concord Adex | Kohn Pedersen Fox

[UtakataNoAnnex]

Update: Construction still seems to be commencing here. I mean, workers appear to be on site doing something and the least one crane seems to be swinging around to lift something...from a brief glance via touring my Mother through...er, Ikea across the corner from all of this...

...so has Concord patched things up with The City, @Northern Light -san?

 

[maestro]

There was an approved addition built without the necessary building permits in my neighbourhood. The addition passed inspection after the fact and is now part of the community. I believe I would have heard if there were any major fines involved. If that's the case, I see no reason for Concord to stop if they are confident in the construction taking place

 

[Northern Light]

Update: Construction still seems to be commencing here. I mean, workers appear to be on site doing something and the least one crane seems to be swinging around to lift something...from a brief glance via touring my Mother through...er, Ikea across the corner from all of this...

...so has Concord patched things up with The City, @Northern Light -san?

The Stop Work Order stands, it does not show as resolved, I do not see any applicable permits as issued.

I think this looks very bad on the City, they should be arresting workers on site. If people can flaunt City orders, it renders the entire system worthless.

 

[Benito]

Today.

 

[maestro]

Arrest workers?

I think that's a little extreme. Ignoring the stop work order is temporary. It doesn't render the system worthless. They will have to eventually comply to the zoning and building codes or Concord is not going to be able to occupy a half billion dollar tower with tenents.

This is a little more than paperwork. The broader concern is the city issuing a shoring and excavation permit for a 5 storey deep hole (that exists to fill itself in) without the necessary permits to bring the structure at least back to grade.

 

[Northern Light]

Arrest workers?

I think that's a little extreme. Ignoring the stop work order is temporary. It doesn't render the system worthless.

If a police officer tells you to stop (or pullover) and you fail to do so, you will be pursued, forced off the road, and arrested.

The system only works if people comply.

I'm not suggesting we start with arrests for working w/o a permit.

I'm suggesting that once you've reached a stop work order that is as serious (or ought to be) as breaching a court injunction.

If the message being sent is, don't bother getting a permit, don't even apply, saves time and money; and there are no consequences........that is a serious problem.

I'm aware of another building in this City that is already substantially complete for which no permit was issued (or applied for) at all.

I'm leaning into the City hard to do something (or else).

They will have to eventually comply to the zoning and building codes or Concord is not going to be able to occupy a half billion dollar tower with tenents.

Work has already been completed that was not inspected; the only remedy is to demolish that work. Inspectors don't come by to pass work when there is no valid permit.

This is a little more than paperwork. The broader concern is the city issuing a shoring and excavation permit for a 5 storey deep hole (that exists to fill itself in) without the necessary permits to bring the structure at least back to grade.

This is not a concern this is 100% normal, course of business practice. It takes the City a long time to go over detailed drawings; making a developer wait for the City to have examined plans for every floor of a building before issuing the first shoring permit would result in delays of months, possibly even a year or more.

 

[UtakataNoAnnex]

Arrest workers?

I think that's a little extreme. Ignoring the stop work order is temporary. It doesn't render the system worthless.

Perhaps? But if they where doing something illegal...I suspect you'd be the first to call for their heads.

And you haven't said why this wouldn't render the system worthless. For me it's about setting a precedent here...to which in logical conclusion would likely render the system worthless.

 

[maestro]

What do you mean by I didn't provide a reason why this doesn't render the system worthless? This will iron itself out. This super tall will accept residents without passing inspection. I don't condone the actions taken here. I wouldn't do it and not because of liability. To refer to the continuation of construction with a stop work order in place as a criminal offense is extreme.. It's extreme that this renders the whole system worthless when situations like this have occurred as long as the system has existed.

The only remedy here is to demolish? A year or more to view the plans for a building permit? C'mon.

 

[Collingwoodbuildinglover]

What do you mean by I didn't provide a reason why this doesn't render the system worthless? This will iron itself out. This super tall will accept residents without passing inspection. I don't condone the actions taken here. I wouldn't do it and not because of liability. To refer to the continuation of construction with a stop work order in place as a criminal offense is extreme.. It's extreme that this renders the whole system worthless when situations like this have occurred as long as the system has existed.

The only remedy here is to demolish? A year or more to view the plans for a building permit? C'mon.

Whether it has taken a year or not, if you build without a permit, the developer is criminally negligible. This isn't a negotiation if inspections have not happened. Bar sizes have not been verified. Spacings have not been confirmed. Footings aren't verified that they are in the locations that the plan show. Therefore all of this work if done during a stop work should be torn down and redone more so if they were willing to start putting the percade in without permits are the pedestals for the cranes done right? Leaves a lot of questions

 

[maestro]

It takes a long time to get a permit released. That is not because of the time needed for all the engineers to review.

They are liable. It's not criminal until something happens. It could end up needing to be all ripped out. It doesn't mean it has to be all ripped out.

Criminality is knowing they are building to a substandard quality. This makes no sense that this has happened. The suggestion for demolition inferred a means of punishment. There's no reason to demolish if it was built to code or can be adjusted up to code. Demolition is an absolutely last resort and implies criminal intention.

 

[thaivic]

Whether it has taken a year or not, if you build without a permit, the developer is criminally negligible. This isn't a negotiation if inspections have not happened. Bar sizes have not been verified. Spacings have not been confirmed. Footings aren't verified that they are in the locations that the plan show. Therefore all of this work if done during a stop work should be torn down and redone more so if they were willing to start putting the percade in without permits are the pedestals for the cranes done right? Leaves a lot of questions

I work in the low rise industry, we do a lot of the work with the project engineer doing the site visits and writing the reports for us to hand over to the city inspector, most inspectors prefer that as it clears the responsibility from their hands. I am not sure if the High Rise works the same as low rise, i would think that all structural inspection are done by the project engineers as the city does not have enough inspectors for the low rise construction never mind for all the towers going up in the city. I have been doing this for 37 years and i have never been served with a stop work order but if i ever did i would not continue to work on the project until everything was cleared with the city.

 

[emphurent]

The Stop Work Order stands, it does not show as resolved, I do not see any applicable permits as issued.

I think this looks very bad on the City, they should be arresting workers on site. If people can flaunt City orders, it renders the entire system worthless.

Arresting workers feels wrong to me, because many would most likely be fired if they did not agree to work illegally. Bar them out from the site with some police/bylaw barricade sure, it's a much tamer solution. I'm aware of many large contractors across many condo projects who treat their employees very disposably (wages far below average, mostly taking advantage of immigrants who are paid under table), and arresting them would not make a statement to the developer like you suggest.

Project managers and those higher up in the chain and such are the ones who would be responsible in this case IMO, and should be held accountable.

 

[Northern Light]

Arresting workers feels wrong to me, because many would most likely be fired if they did not agree to work illegally. Bar them out from the site with some police/bylaw barricade sure, it's a much tamer solution. I'm aware of many large contractors across many condo projects who treat their employees very disposably (wages far below average, mostly taking advantage of immigrants who are paid under table), and arresting them would not make a statement to the developer like you suggest.

Project managers and those higher up in the chain and such are the ones who would be responsible in this case IMO, and should be held accountable.

I don't disagree w/the premise, and if you deploy enforcement, what should happen is that workers are told at the time of the Stop Work Order being issued that they are barred from the site until the order is removed and a valid permit posted.

Arrest is a last resort for non-compliance. Yes, it's important to hold those giving instructions to maximum account, no disagreement there; but ultimately, knowing and wilful defiance of the law does need to carry consequences. Discretion always exists in how you hand that......

I have to say, though, I haven't seen a great deal of labour, at the excavation/below-grade forming stage that strikes me as likely to be illegal.

That may be more of an issue than I realize, but I tend to think you see a lot more of it in trades that show up later in a project (the glazing trade seems to have an issue w/questionable labour, but I digress)

Crane operators are rarely illegal labour and are very well paid, if they simply stayed home, the sites would likely grind to a halt, and it would next to impossible to blacklist them given their extreme shortage.

 

[UtakataNoAnnex]

Arresting workers feels wrong to me, because many would most likely be fired if they did not agree to work illegally. Bar them out from the site with some police/bylaw barricade sure, it's a much tamer solution. I'm aware of many large contractors across many condo projects who treat their employees very disposably (wages far below average, mostly taking advantage of immigrants who are paid under table), and arresting them would not make a statement to the developer like you suggest.

Project managers and those higher up in the chain and such are the ones who would be responsible in this case IMO, and should be held accountable.

My opinion on the matter that the consequences should be directed towards those at the top end here...with the suits being rounded up first.

That said, the defense of "we only did what our bosses told us to" only goes so far. If they knowingly did something that was illicit and illegal, they should also be giving account for their actions...as they're enabling and being an accessory to behavior that's breaking the rules.

 

[allengeorge]

What do you mean by I didn't provide a reason why this doesn't render the system worthless? This will iron itself out. This super tall will accept residents without passing inspection. I don't condone the actions taken here. I wouldn't do it and not because of liability. To refer to the continuation of construction with a stop work order in place as a criminal offense is extreme.. It's extreme that this renders the whole system worthless when situations like this have occurred as long as the system has existed.

The only remedy here is to demolish? A year or more to view the plans for a building permit? C'mon.

It's really unclear what you're actually advocating for. Am I understanding right that you think it's OK for Concord to flagrantly ignore the rules and continue building? If so, I truly hope that the city comes down hard and institutes a massive fine. (And that's saying a lot - per my record here I very much have a "build, build, build" mentality.)