madknife
Active Member
so anyone has any updates on when the second DRP would happen? can't wait for some good news on this otherwise dreary day!
Toronto Concord Sky | 299m | 85s | Concord Adex | Kohn Pedersen Fox
- Thread starter greenleaf
- Start date
bmiller
Active Member
Jennifer Keesmat won't be around to oppose this and other tall buildings along Yonge St. because of infrastructure deficiencies.
Who knows how much weight she had anyway, but it may be a tad easier now.
Who knows how much weight she had anyway, but it may be a tad easier now.
Automation Gallery
Superstar
I don't know if she had any influence on how tall buildings were to be built,
... what i do know, this is one of the last opportunities we have of building a 98s/1150 ft. bldg. in this city
isaidso
Senior Member
Perhaps those that have influence over such things should focus their efforts on bridging the infrastructure deficit rather than stunting growth. Sewer capacity insufficient? Build larger capacity sewers rather than restrict development. Insufficient subway capacity? Build more lines rather than restrict development. Sidewalks too narrow? Widen sidewalks instead of restrict development.
This is the job I want our public servants to do.
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
Infastructure doesn't happen by fiat, and civil servants certainly can't make it happen because I said so. So, let me throw out an example - sidewalks - it is of insufficient width. Widen it you say? What of road capacity then? And never mind subway capacity, because "build more lines" have worked so well as a policy over the past 50 years in the core - and you can't blame public servants for not coming up with proposals on that one.
AoD
Lenser
Senior Member
Don't forget the whole rigamarole about who pays for it. By way of example, Ford Nation built an entire movement out of "respect for taxpayers," which in turn was code for "I don't want to pay for it." Boring infrastructure like an improved sewage system or a bulked-up electrical grid are so unsexy - but even somewhat racier stuff like subways don't get much love. Even when we do commit to subways these days, we don't very often get it right - witness the under-used Sheppard line or the new one-stop Scarborough boondoggle. Seems we can't even target even comparatively paltry funds appropriately.
It's no wonder the city is lagging in its major infrastructure commitments. Our political system is mechanically geared towards 4-year electoral cycles and everything flows from that simple fact. We end up with politicians and parties chasing votes rather than getting down to the business of city-building. It's a wonder anything positive gets done at all, and progress does happen - albeit at a snail's pace.
As for Jennifer Keesmat, she never had the massive political influence some suspect her of. She's always been but one voice among many. Blaming her for height limitations in this city makes zero sense.
It's no wonder the city is lagging in its major infrastructure commitments. Our political system is mechanically geared towards 4-year electoral cycles and everything flows from that simple fact. We end up with politicians and parties chasing votes rather than getting down to the business of city-building. It's a wonder anything positive gets done at all, and progress does happen - albeit at a snail's pace.
As for Jennifer Keesmat, she never had the massive political influence some suspect her of. She's always been but one voice among many. Blaming her for height limitations in this city makes zero sense.
ADRM
Senior Member
Also, there's not exactly a shortage of tall buildings currently under construction on Yonge, and FWIW, KWT was also quite outspoken about the stresses on local infrastructure on and around Yonge.
Incidentally, it's KWT and Keesmaat about whom I think I most consistently see people complaining without much of anything to back it up.
Incidentally, it's KWT and Keesmaat about whom I think I most consistently see people complaining without much of anything to back it up.
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
In fact, we have gotten a height increase for Mirvish+Gehry and 1 Yonge under her watch. Density was traded for increased height.
AoD
bmiller
Active Member
It's a moot point now, but her big complaint was the Yonge St. corridor. Precedence is being set every year, so restrictions will be harder to enforce under the older guidelines.
Infrastructure problems aren't only a Toronto problem. The same thing is happening all over North America.
There will be an OH,OH moment in the future when people in position will realize we should have done this, and some of that 20 years ago, but until then it's carry on.
There is no money for a complete overhaul anyway. The city doesn't have billions lying around, and the Feds infrastructure plan seems to be non existent, or at least
on such a small scale nobody even hears about it.
A billion dollars doesn't get you what it used to. Look at Union Station. It'll be nice when it's done, but at what cost.
Infrastructure problems aren't only a Toronto problem. The same thing is happening all over North America.
There will be an OH,OH moment in the future when people in position will realize we should have done this, and some of that 20 years ago, but until then it's carry on.
There is no money for a complete overhaul anyway. The city doesn't have billions lying around, and the Feds infrastructure plan seems to be non existent, or at least
on such a small scale nobody even hears about it.
A billion dollars doesn't get you what it used to. Look at Union Station. It'll be nice when it's done, but at what cost.
Lenser
Senior Member
Still, @bmiller, can you imagine what Union would look like, and feel like, in twenty years' time without having had any such improvement as what's currently underway? And consider the cost of that. Which scenario would you improve? Nope, a billion dollars ain't what it used to be. We had best get used to spending more billions, lest our brilliant growth suddenly implode and the city becomes yet another symbol of epic mismanagement, of wasted opportunity. What Toronto offers is a host of attractive factors and advantages, but it's a delicate balance which can very easily be lost through political cowardice and myopic complacency.
At the federal level, the same game is being played as what our local and provincial levels are indulging in. Our politicians are generally reluctant to commit to a multi-year build-out for fear of alienating a fickle and volatile electorate. Nor do I buy the idea that "there's no money." What's lacking is political will. That gets you all the money you need. Other countries seem to make do with less resources. Seems to me we have some political and social infrastructural problems that are working to hold us back as a nation.
Anyway, not to get too off-topic about this. YSL, for its sheer size, will add to already strained demands on Yonge Street, that's for sure. We will pay down the road for it and other projects so rapidly changing the appearance and demands on the core. Just like New Yorkers are paying for a subway system that's been allowed to crumble for lack of proper maintenance. Just like decaying bridges and tunnels all across America. Funds that should have been used for regular upkeep and replacement have been diverted in a series of short-sighted moves; the lack of funds then becomes the new normal. So no, Toronto is not the only place where this kind of dangerous erosion is happening. But owing to the speed of change in this fast-growing town, the effects are perhaps more dramatic than in many other cities.
I do think we tend to get the kinds of cities we deserve. So there's that, too.
At the federal level, the same game is being played as what our local and provincial levels are indulging in. Our politicians are generally reluctant to commit to a multi-year build-out for fear of alienating a fickle and volatile electorate. Nor do I buy the idea that "there's no money." What's lacking is political will. That gets you all the money you need. Other countries seem to make do with less resources. Seems to me we have some political and social infrastructural problems that are working to hold us back as a nation.
Anyway, not to get too off-topic about this. YSL, for its sheer size, will add to already strained demands on Yonge Street, that's for sure. We will pay down the road for it and other projects so rapidly changing the appearance and demands on the core. Just like New Yorkers are paying for a subway system that's been allowed to crumble for lack of proper maintenance. Just like decaying bridges and tunnels all across America. Funds that should have been used for regular upkeep and replacement have been diverted in a series of short-sighted moves; the lack of funds then becomes the new normal. So no, Toronto is not the only place where this kind of dangerous erosion is happening. But owing to the speed of change in this fast-growing town, the effects are perhaps more dramatic than in many other cities.
I do think we tend to get the kinds of cities we deserve. So there's that, too.
maestro
Senior Member
I really hope you aren't being serious about stunting growth and restricting development. Look at the number of developments and their average densities being approved! There comes a point where allowing greater and greater densities is a disservice to everyone. It's not a nice environment to live in and the costs to increase those capacities becomes ridiculously expensive. Get developers to reduce lot coverage and increase floor height assuming this is all about delusions of height.
bmiller
Active Member
Lenser, i agree 100% about Union Station. It's a grand building and needed the overhaul. Changing contractors part way through didn't help either, but was necessary. It's the stuff
no ones see's that will be the big problem sooner than later. Now there's a few billion just to get started. It will have to be done bit by bit, it's just a matter of time.
no ones see's that will be the big problem sooner than later. Now there's a few billion just to get started. It will have to be done bit by bit, it's just a matter of time.
buildup
Senior Member
I don't buy the argument YSL will put pressure on Yonge line. If you're working in the core it's actually faster to walk south than jump on the subway, 12 minute walk to King & Bay. If you're heading North in the morning there's lots of space on the subway, vice versa at night.
If YSL was built at Shepperd the impact would be much, much worse to TTC congestion.
Agree completely it's elected representatives who have been letting us down, trying to stay elected rather than solving city problems.
I recall George Mammaloti dumping the change in his pocket on Tory's desk at City Hall to protest transit spending saying "why dont you just take all my money..."
If YSL was built at Shepperd the impact would be much, much worse to TTC congestion.
Agree completely it's elected representatives who have been letting us down, trying to stay elected rather than solving city problems.
I recall George Mammaloti dumping the change in his pocket on Tory's desk at City Hall to protest transit spending saying "why dont you just take all my money..."
Lenser
Senior Member
You can't put it all on politicians, however tempting the notion might be. We're the ones who put them in office. The people themselves have to take responsibility for at least some of the city's more critical failings, or we're doomed to repeat the same old mistakes that have hobbled us in the past.
YSL will almost certainly add to the strain on the Yonge line. As well as on hydro. And on sewage. The ambient volume levels will probably creep up too - how could they not? Every major new building going up on Yonge adds to various load factors. It's simple math.
YSL will almost certainly add to the strain on the Yonge line. As well as on hydro. And on sewage. The ambient volume levels will probably creep up too - how could they not? Every major new building going up on Yonge adds to various load factors. It's simple math.
buildup
Senior Member
Haven't heard "ambient volume levels"as an issue recently. I suppose ambient heat as well will be impacted. Also ambient smash-effect for migrating birds.