Cloverdale Mall Redevelopment | 154m | 48s | QuadReal | Giannone Petricone

Northern Light

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This image is East Mall South of Dundas. Industrial area.
Cloverdale Mall is on the North side.

Dundas & East Mall and Dundas & HWY 427 ramp are traffic lit intersections. Not very pedestrian friendly, but there are not many pedestrians there.

QuadReal will be hosting the public unveiling of the master redevelopment plan for Cloverdale Mall on Nov. 23 at the Cloverdale Common (250 The East Mall, Toronto near Service Ontario inside the mall). Presentations will run at 12 p.m. and 2 p.m. The company plans to submit a rezoning application to the city in March 2020.


I appreciate the info; but I do know where the image was taken.

The point I made was whether it's possible for the new community to be connected to transit, and its neighbours in a pedestrian-friendly way.

Dundas & East Mall do NOT meet at grade, therefore they do not have a traffic-lit intersection, this is simply not correct; ramps to/from East Mall have a traffic lit intersection w/Dundas, not at all the same thing.

As to Dundas/427 ramps, only one portion of one ramp arrives at Dundas at a traffic light; NB access is from a highway acceleration lane only; and one portion of the exit from NB is as well, the result of which is a very unpleasant and dangerous area to walk.
 

Towered

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I appreciate the info; but I do know where the image was taken.

The point I made was whether it's possible for the new community to be connected to transit, and its neighbours in a pedestrian-friendly way.

Dundas & East Mall do NOT meet at grade, therefore they do not have a traffic-lit intersection, this is simply not correct; ramps to/from East Mall have a traffic lit intersection w/Dundas, not at all the same thing.

As to Dundas/427 ramps, only one portion of one ramp arrives at Dundas at a traffic light; NB access is from a highway acceleration lane only; and one portion of the exit from NB is as well, the result of which is a very unpleasant and dangerous area to walk.

Is there any particular reason why Dundas and East Mall do not meet at grade? The rail line is further south, so it's not that...
 

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Is there any particular reason why Dundas and East Mall do not meet at grade? The rail line is further south, so it's not that...

I have no specific knowledge of the original reasoning, but I'm assuming it comes out of the same period of logic as 'six points', the grade separation of McCowan/Progress in Scarborough, and the grade separation of
Wynford and Eglinton Avenue East. the desire to make every road an expressway.
 

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I have no specific knowledge of the original reasoning, but I'm assuming it comes out of the same period of logic as 'six points', the grade separation of McCowan/Progress in Scarborough, and the grade separation of
Wynford and Eglinton Avenue East. the desire to make every road an expressway.

If that's indeed the only reason for its current state, then the redevelopment of the mall provides an excellent opportunity to rework the intersection with an urban design to undo the mistakes of 1950's autocentric planning, similar to the makeover Six Points is getting just down the street.
 

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I have no specific knowledge of the original reasoning, but I'm assuming it comes out of the same period of logic as 'six points', the grade separation of McCowan/Progress in Scarborough, and the grade separation of
Wynford and Eglinton Avenue East. the desire to make every road an expressway.
215919

City of Toronto - Aerial Photographs 1970
Aerial photo from 1970 shows The East Mall Crescent as part of The East Mall. The East Mall ended at Dundas. Nothing was lost when they grade-separated The East Mall (extension) / Dundas intersection as the areas to the north and south of Dundas were never "connected" in a sense.
 

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View attachment 215919
City of Toronto - Aerial Photographs 1970
Aerial photo from 1970 shows The East Mall Crescent as part of The East Mall. The East Mall ended at Dundas. Nothing was lost when they grade-separated The East Mall (extension) / Dundas intersection as the areas to the north and south of Dundas were never "connected" in a sense.

What was lost, was what was never gained.

A walkable, aesthetically pleasing, area suitable for pedestrians, cyclists, public transit users and cars/trucks in balance, with due consideration for safety and the environment.

No reason not to fix it now.
 
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11th

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What was lost, was what was never gained.

A walkable, aesthetic pleasing, area suitable for pedestrians, cyclists, public transit users and cars/trucks in balance, with due consideration for safety and the environment.

No reason not to fix it now.
Nothing was to be gained because area south of Dundas was/is industrial. It was never a pedestrian paradise. Underpass or not wouldn't have changed that.

In my opinion that is the whole reason the current set up is in place. Unless you are redeveloping the industrial area into residential communities, that stretch of Dundas will remain a hostile pedestrian environment. Trucks will be turning onto Dundas to access the 427. The "balance" at this location should be to segregate pedestrian from industrial traffic.
 
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Northern Light

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Nothing was to be gained because area south of Dundas was/is industrial. It was never a pedestrian paradise. Underpass or not wouldn't have changed that.

In my opinion that is the whole reason the current set up is in place. Unless you are redeveloping the industrial area into residential communities, that stretch of Dundas will remain a hostile pedestrian environment. Trucks will be turning onto Dundas to access the 427. The "balance" at this location should be to segregate pedestrian from industrial traffic.

To be clear, you can repeat your idea as often as you wish, I will continue to view it was incorrect.

Industrial areas can and should be pedestrian friendly.

That does not mean a paradise, it does mean that employees who work in these plants have a right to access their place of employment on foot, with a reasonable sense of safety, accessibility, etc.

It is also possible and indeed desirable to employ environmentally sustainable design, which means considering air quality and water quality when designing a road network.

That in turn demands looking at infiltration of water, and the planting of trees.

The design here was a fail in its own time, and remains one today.

If you prefer such areas be inhospitable to pedestrians, unsafe and unattractive that is your prerogative, but one I don't share.
 

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What was lost, was what was never gained.

A walkable, aesthetically pleasing, area suitable for pedestrians, cyclists, public transit users and cars/trucks in balance, with due consideration for safety and the environment.

No reason not to fix it now.
Sure there's a reason not to fix it now: money. There's no way there will be enough Section 37 money generated from the Cloverdale redevelopment to rebuild East Mall and Vickers Road unless maybe they spent all of it on that and had nothing left for any other public realm improvements around the mall. In the end, you'd have a very expensive at grade East Mall slicing between a kilometre's worth of the backs of industrial buildings, with nowhere to walk to anyway. If that area south of Dundas were being redeveloped, then sure, rebuild the East Mall then, but with current land uses, you'd be spending countless millions on maybe one pedestrian a day.

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Sure there's a reason not to fix it now: money. There's no way there will be enough Section 37 money generated from the Cloverdale redevelopment to rebuild East Mall and Vickers Road unless maybe they spent all of it on that and had nothing left for any other public realm improvements around the mall. In the end, you'd have a very expensive at grade East Mall slicing between a kilometre's worth of the backs of industrial buildings, with nowhere to walk to anyway. If that area south of Dundas were being redeveloped, then sure, rebuild the East Mall then, but with current land uses, you'd be spending countless millions on maybe one pedestrian a day.

42

We'll have to disagree here, in part because of your own post, LOL
The closest a possible subway extension might come is half a kilometre to the south of Dundas where the CP line crosses the East Mall. That might make Cloverdale one or two bus stops from the subway some far distant future day, but that's it.

42

I view this proposal as being contingent on quality public transit, likely a future subway extension.

Ergo, a desirable connection to the nearest station is essential, the local being 500m to the south, as outlined by yourself.

***

I'd add that I think putting this intersection back to grade need not be that expensive on a net basis; all that land now consumed by the ramp structure becomes surplus and could be added to the developable property.
 

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? That means nothing if you don't explain it.

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See above, I had an issue w/trying to multi-quote your original post on station location, so I had a temporary, partial post.

***

I'll add here, I don't think the cost need be prohibitive on a gross (pre-land sale) basis either.

You could keep Dundas at its current grade, back-fill under the bridge structure and then simply ramp East Mall up with fill.

I'm fully aware that's not quite as simple as I'm making it sound, but there's no reason it shouldn't work and eliminates the cost of removing the current bridge structure, except for the parapet walls.
 
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interchange42

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See above, I had an issue w/trying to multi-quote your original post on station location, so I had a temporary, partial post.

***

I'll add here, I don't think the cost need be prohibitive on a gross (pre-land sale) basis either.

You could keep Dundas at its current grade, back-fill under the bridge structure and then simply ramp East Mall up with fill.

I'm fully aware that's not quite as simple as I'm making it sound, but there's no reason it shouldn't work and eliminates the cost of removing the current bridge structure, except for the parapet walls.
You'd have to build a new access to the industries on Vickers Road, probably have to buy land for that… all in aid of nothing essentially. If that area were to be redeveloped, great. Without that, there are many better places to spend the money it would cost.

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You'd have to build a new access to the industries on Vickers Road, probably have to buy land for that… all in aid of nothing essentially. If that area were to be redeveloped, great. Without that, there are many better places to spend the money it would cost.

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I recall there being large scale mixed use redevelopment plans at both the Honeydale Mall site and the Food Basics site, both of which lie right next to this intersection.
 

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