Toronto Bloor Street Revitalization | ?m | ?s | Bloor-Yorkville BIA | architectsAlliance

[Tewder]

^While I don't agree with Tewder's assessment of Toronto's upscale retail market, he has made it pretty obvious that he thinks that Toronto should aim higher architecturally/aesthetically than it currently does and not use provincialism as an excuse to settle.

Yes, bang on the nose...thank you.

Have you been to Chicago, not sure I agree that they have less in the way of high end retail.

Sigh, this is not the point. Of course Chicago has more retail chains and department stores, but so do many American cities far smaller than Toronto, which is less about the vibrancy of the retail markets in those cities than about the dense domestic supply/distribution networks in place, the economies of scale on offer, and border/licensing complications that favour the proliferation and saturation of national chains across America and even in smaller markets there...

Lets look at the picture in a different way though. At a time of economic recession when many retailers in the US are closing locations and paring back expansion domestically we are seeing quite the opposite happening in Toronto which is attracting higher end American and International retailers like never before, many of whom are jostling for precious space along Bloor for flagship locations, and where those that are already there are expanding and renovating their locations. This is fairly unheard of in most markets right now where rising vacancies, falling retail rents and the closing of locations is far more the norm, and even in Chicago: http://www.careerjournal.com/article/SB123923166448402935.html?mod=article-outset-box

Toronto's retail scene has taken its hits too of course but in comparison with the rest of north america it has held its ground for most economic indicators and proven itself fairly recession-proof, for whatever complicated reasons, and this is luring international retailers here in greater numbers.... all of which is only to say that comparing the actual vibrancy and status of Bloor Street in Toront to the Mag Mile in Chicago shouldn't be that outlandish or ambitious a claim, the major difference boiling down to established reputation over time, greater promotion and grander vision which Chicago has clearly always had over Toronto.... But, wasn't this BIA initiative the perfect time and the perfect opportunity to work towards changing this, while we were already going through the upheaval of the sidewalks and construction mess and so on? Instead we played it safe and did as little as possible, justifying this timidity and mediocrity with many of the responses in this thread (we're not Chicago so why bother, hey this is good enough and better than nothing, etc etc).

Actually, given those buildings have been around for years (unlike this current round of public realm improvements), and the disproportionate impact it has on any urban design schema, I would say the lackluster architecture is more of a cause than anything else.

That was my main point of reference, the wide avenues, super wide sidewalks adorned with lots of greenery and the surrounding architecture. N. Michigan Ave. is very engaging and extremely pleasant to walk along.

I find this perspective to be defeatist. I'm not suggesting Bloor should strive to be the Magnificent Mile in a literal sense. It should strive to be the best Bloor Street it can be. The buildings aren't the problem. They actually form a fairly engaging and interesting dense retail canyon in the heart of the city, connecting Yorkville with the downtown Yonge retail strip. Private enterprise is doing its part, generally speaking, by improving their locations through expansions and renovations but many others still need to do their part (Holt's, The Bay etc). As I've already stated the pavers are beautiful and I'm hoping the rest will make a big difference but it looks like far more could have been done to truly unify and brand the area on a level with the Mag Mile (as a comparison )

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

The buildings aren't the problem. They actually form a fairly engaging and interesting dense retail canyon in the heart of the city, connecting Yorkville with the downtown Yonge retail strip.

Err, I beg to differ. Just looking at the stretch from roughly Yonge/Bloor to Bay/Bloor I can think of quite a few architectural failures on top of Bay, CIBC, Holts complex. e.g. Stollery, Scotia Bank, North end of Manulife Centre, TD Bank...plus the 90% of the rest, which is architectually uninspiring at best. Things are a little better between Bay and Avenue Road, but still by no means great. In fact, the quality of the public realm improvements is probably superior to the architecture after the revitalization.

I am not sure if this is true, but I have a nagging feeling that luxury retailers spend less on their premises than elsewhere...

AoD

 

[Tewder]

There are enough interesting buildings along Bloor, and buildings of good scale that meet the street well, to create an overall favourable streetscape for retail. Again, instead of looking at the lack of architectural masterpieces we should look at what is there to work with: the overall density and scale, the central location and excellent accessibility, the fact that most buildings along this stretch meet the street well, and some better modern buildings like the Colonnade and some better heritage ones like The Church of the Redeemer or the Club Monaco building at Avenue Road... Also, the Bloor stretch is fortunate to be bookended by (hopefully) great architecture on both sides, the ROM/Crystal and RCM/Telus Centre etc. in the west and future new and hopefully impressive tower(s) to the east at Yonge... Again, if Holt's and the Bay were to follow the lead of other retailers and if the BIA renovation is successful Bloor Street wont feel as far away from the Mag Mile as it does now.

 

[urbandreamer]

^The best part of Bloor Street runs from roughly Spadina to Lansdowne; the rest is rubbish!

 

[Urban Shocker]

I just wish that more of the merchandise in these "high end" stores on prime Bloor Street was of some creative value. Most of it's so boring. If a few innovative designers set up shop there, regardless of what the actual storefronts looked like, I might buy the odd trinket or gown. Tiffany is in malls, Hermes, Chanel and Vuitton are status buys, and Holts is playing it safer and safer.

 

[adma]

What's so architecturally bad about Holt Renfrew? I find its late 70s marble-clad sleekness hasn't aged badly (aside from the "faux-facading" of end bit exterior)

 

[Logan]

The new sidewalks are a vast improvement no doubt. My only complaint is that I wish there money left over to create unique street furniture instead of the same standard light poles, benches, manhole covers, etc.

We don't have to look to Chicago or any other city for inspiration although I must admit, I was completely blown away by the light poles in Barcelona. They're so damn gorgeous and unique, throughout the city. IMO, it's those collective details that make a great street. Not just the actual sidewalk.

 

[TrickyRicky]

I think there are three elements at play here in this discussion. One is the public realm space, two is the retail make-up or degree of specialization, and three is the private realm architect and how that architect abuts the public realm.

Bloor street has been moving forward in all three of these areas over the last number of years. Consider for a moment viewing this process through the frame that the physical spaces and utility of the spaces are in themselves nothing more than a manifestation of our own culture and community development. The reason why we are seeing more up-scale retail investment, investment in the public realm and consideration by property owners of how their buildings fit in to the context of the area is because we are maturing to the point where these phenomena are possible.

Bloor street can never be Chicago's "Magnificant Mile" or New York's Fifth Avenue because our culture and level of maturity don't match. Toronto retail and building ownership is mostly composed either of small intelligent independent but unsophisticated business people or large conservative corporate managers (ususally pension funds). There can't be the level of dictatorial control of vision that comes from a group of individual wealthy industrialists, and each building, each store must first and foremost be a stand-alone profitable enterprise.

What we are seeing however is the coming of age of second generation business and property owners who are driving architecture and neighbourhood development. They have the degree of specialization and knowledge because they don't have to be as concerned with outright survival and pragmatism that governed the thinking of the pioneering generations. Think of it as first generation risk, pragmatism and survival, second generation innovation, creativity and stewartship.

 

[SP!RE]

The new sidewalks are a vast improvement no doubt. My only complaint is that I wish there money left over to create unique street furniture instead of the same standard light poles, benches, manhole covers, etc.

We don't have to look to Chicago or any other city for inspiration although I must admit, I was completely blown away by the light poles in Barcelona. They're so damn gorgeous and unique, throughout the city. IMO, it's those collective details that make a great street. Not just the actual sidewalk.

Even if they could have made the poles black instead of silver metal. Such a small cost difference for such a different effect. In fact, why do we even use "overhead" suburban lighting on such a bright, urban strip? Can't this stretch just have the signature Bloor-Yorkville streetlamps instead?

 

[Tewder]

Bloor street can never be Chicago's "Magnificant Mile" or New York's Fifth Avenue because our culture and level of maturity don't match.

Huh?! You might have some further explaining to do on this point...

Toronto retail and building ownership is mostly composed either of small intelligent independent but unsophisticated business people or large conservative corporate managers (ususally pension funds). There can't be the level of dictatorial control of vision that comes from a group of individual wealthy industrialists, and each building, each store must first and foremost be a stand-alone profitable enterprise.

Be careful of generaliztions. There are all kinds of exceptions to what you describe, and at a time when Tim Horton's and TD Bank etc. are expanding southward it rings a little false to talk of inveterate commercial inferiority coming out of Toronto or Canada...

What's so architecturally bad about Holt Renfrew? I find its late 70s marble-clad sleekness hasn't aged badly (aside from the "faux-facading" of end bit exterior)

Okay, maybe not bad so much as unappealing for its purpose and context... Not sure, maybe it's the low height/density for its site, the dirty white cladding, or the heavy opaque bunkerishness of it that seems to push you away rather than invite you in... in other words in this instance i'd probably 'welcome' a different form of 'not so bad' architecture if it enlivened the site a bit more. That said, if there are 'heritage' considerations here I could feel differently about it. I'm curious if this is the original facade or if it itself was a make-over of a pre-existing building?

 

[junctionist]

Err, I beg to differ. Just looking at the stretch from roughly Yonge/Bloor to Bay/Bloor I can think of quite a few architectural failures on top of Bay, CIBC, Holts complex. e.g. Stollery, Scotia Bank, North end of Manulife Centre, TD Bank...plus the 90% of the rest, which is architectually uninspiring at best. Things are a little better between Bay and Avenue Road, but still by no means great. In fact, the quality of the public realm improvements is probably superior to the architecture after the revitalization.

What's wrong with CIBC, presuming you mean 2 Bloor West. Its strong vertical concrete lines, the concrete sections delineating the mechanical parts of the building and the unique brown grid make it one of the more distinctive and interesting towers downtown. I don't know why that one gets such a bad rap.

 

[Urban Shocker]

I do - like other decent buildings from that era it's in a trough of the fashionable/unfashionable cycle so beloved of those who have no other basis upon which to evaluate the significance of buildings. The lobby artwork, also very "of its time", has already been carted off somewhere or destroyed - I know not which.

 

[Urban Shocker]

Okay, maybe not bad so much as unappealing for its purpose and context... Not sure, maybe it's the low height/density for its site, the dirty white cladding, or the heavy opaque bunkerishness of it that seems to push you away rather than invite you in... in other words in this instance i'd probably 'welcome' a different form of 'not so bad' architecture if it enlivened the site a bit more. That said, if there are 'heritage' considerations here I could feel differently about it. I'm curious if this is the original facade or if it itself was a make-over of a pre-existing building?

They used to be at 144 Bloor West ( near Avenue Road ) from the mid-50s until the present store - designed by Crang and Boake - opened. And they've since expanded within the building - taking over that generous second floor space overlooking Bloor that was once occupied the trendy, all-night Bloor Street Diner for instance, and the space once occupied by a few retailers on that floor to the east.

 

[Tewder]

Thanks US. Do you know if the part fronting Bloor was newly built at that time or a retrofit of an older building?

 

[Urban Shocker]

I believe that Urban Shocker's Really Big Tour was rolling through Europe around the time this was built ( I missed the entire Joe Clark government ... ) so I can't say for sure, but I assume Bang and Croake built from scratch - it was part of a bigger-picture jazzing-up of Bloor Street that included the earlier Hudson Bay Centre ( also by them, I think ) and 2 Bloor West.