Toronto Bay Adelaide Centre | 217.92m | 51s | Brookfield | KPMB
- Thread starter yyzer
- Start date
innsertnamehere
Superstar
that is because of the new space coming online.. current vacancy rates are dangerously low right now. (below 5%) I don't think that there is a single space in the entire downtown over 2 floors. if you are a large company and want to move downtown, you're out of luck. the new buildings are going to bring it to a more healthy level, though with 1 York going up around 7/8ths empty, there may be a small glut for a couple of years. all those articles are saying is "oh look, levels are returning to 2007 vacancy rates! oh no!"
Mithras
Active Member
That’s absolutely wrong. While a lot of these are being listed as available but won’t be until some new builds come on line, across all of them there are many more than 2 full floors available RIGHT NOW (The list doesn’t include under construction properties). These are only listed (direct & sublet) spaces which are more than 2 full floors contiguous.
14 floors (271k sq.ft.) available in 222 Bay
42-45th floor (60k sq.ft.) available in 77 king
11-13th floor (52k sq.ft.) available in 95 wellington
14-16th floor (57k sq.ft.) available in 1 Adelaide
11-12th floor (20.5k sq.ft.) available in 105 Adelaide
13-21st floor (199k sq.ft.) available in 161 Bay
7,9,11-14,26-27,34-35 floors (250k sq.ft.) available in 181 Bay
7&9th floor (24.5k sq.ft.) available in 330 Bay
7-8,11th floor (34k sq.ft.) available in 333 Bay
10-11,15th floor (52k sq.ft.) available in 123 Front
41-47,50-51st floor (205k sq.ft.) available in 40 king
10,47-52,69,72nd floor (245k sq.ft.) available in 100 King
2-3rd floor (44k sq.ft.) available in 121 King
13-16th floor (87.5k sq.ft.) available in 130 King
10-12th floor (58.5k sq.ft.) available in 200 King
3-8, 11-12th floor (192k sq.ft.) available in 2 Queen
9-10th floor (30.6k sq.ft.) available in 111 Richmond
4-10th floor (148k sq.ft.) available in 70 University
4-11th floor (72k sq.ft.) available in 155 University
DtTO
Active Member
^ I'm pretty sure he was referring to Class A office space. Large corporations looking for an office downtown are not going to look at some second rate building when they could pay much less for an equivalent space in the burbs.
Mithras
Active Member
222 Bay, 77 King, 95 Wellington, 161 Bay, 181 Bay, 333 Bay, 40 King, 100 King, 21 King, 130 King, 200 King are all Class A-AAA at the very least with 1 Adelaide, 123 Front, 2 Queen, 111 Richmond and 70/155 university all being at the very very least strong B class buildings.
Maybe if I use their names instead? BCE Place, Scotia Plaza, Bay Adelaide, First Canadian Place, Exchange Tower, Standard Life, TD Centre...
taal
Senior Member
haha ! I laughed out loud when I read this .........
Just about every building he listed is not only class A, rather class AAA ....
But just so you know, a lot of space you see there is sublease space due to tenants moving into the new building coming online in the next 1 -> 3 years ... they generally start marketing as early as possible ...
Southcore
Active Member
on top of all the buildings/floors already mentioned isn't the entire building of 16 York up for grabs too?
Doesn't 16 have to be built first?
taal
Senior Member
Its still in the leasing stage with no plans to start soon.
The better example is across the street, the Menkes development ... the office building their is going ahead with just one small tenant, HOOP ... there is still over 600K in that building ... it essentially went up on spec !
innsertnamehere
Superstar
^Thats what I was talking about, its going up around 7/8ths empty.
taal
Senior Member
Yep !
Here are the most recent figures (note if there were any recent singing [i.e. last few months] it probably isn't reflected below):
This is how FULL they are (i.e. this is the amount of leased space) along with the completion data:
RBC Water park place (80%) 2014 [late]
Bremner Tower (60%) 2014
BA East (60%) (2016)
100 Adelaide (45%) 2017
1 York (20%) 2017
Queen Richmond (20%) 2015
King East Center (45%) 2016
I think that covers every building under construction in the greater core ? : - ) ... let me know if I missed something.
BTW - in terms of all recently build building (i.e. Telus / RBC / Bremner tower 1 / MLS ... they are all just about 100% leased).
I think a good indicator of the health will be how the buildings above do near completion ... the old stock of AAA buildings will always suffer, this is quite typical, so that part shouldn't be surprising.
After the last large swath of building completed, the old stock actually recovered relatively quickly ... but the market doesn't seem as active anymore ... the financial sector in Toronto (still doing very well) went through a hiring spree maybe 1 / 2 years ago, so its unlikely this will really fuel any growth.
Also keep in mind another difficulty is when firms move into new buildings they typically take the SAME amount of space ! Does this imply 0 head count growth, not at all ! Just a reduction in space per employee ... and this will continue for anyone moving from an older to newer building.
The older buildings do adjust ! I've seen new offices (i.e. refurbished by some firm) in the RBC Plaza (i.e. the gold buildings) ... not for RBC ... and they're built in a way you'd see in a newer building.
Anyway, my perdition is 2014 will be an OK / meh year ... and we'll likely see no more new office projects, less potentially some small ones, or ones part of a larger development.
Automation Gallery
Superstar
Well your prediction has pretty well been the same for the last 5 years with no more new office projects, look what's popped up unexpected,
I'm going to say we hear about 2 big ones for this year...43 Simcoe (CF has been dormant for the last couple years) and 45 Bay (Ivanhoé Cambridge wants to break ground in Toronto)
2015 will possibly see a new office tower proposed for 30 Bay Street (TPA has partnered with Oxford and is desperate to have that land developed for office space)
Also don't forget.....388 King W & 82 Peter St (800,000 sq ft office, Allied REIT, 29s, Hariri Pontarini) with full approvals and rumored to breakground in the next year or two,
same said for, 16 York (Cadillac Fairview, 32s, B+H Architects/aA)
RiverCity1
Active Member
Well we will be seeing new office developments announced this year.
Automation Gallery
Superstar
Yeah, no doom and gloom in the Toronto office market
........1 Yonge, Oxford Place, and BAC-3. have also included new office towers in their new developments
taal
Senior Member
haha ! You do have a point there ; - ) and believe you me I'd love to see more office buildings (its just easier to err on the side of pessimism) ... I'll stick to the facts for now, the % I gave above should be fairly accurate. But in all honesty, if you do read market reports, they do say leasing activity is slower now then it was in 2012 (i.e. after the last boom) but that doesn't mean it cannot change !
Regarding the buildings you listed, yep ... remember Alied also has one on Front ! ... from what I've heard that's actually the furthest along, as clearly its in the most attractive location ... no marketing yet.
BTW - I will say this, there are NO rumors that they are to break ground in a year or two ! I'm not saying that cannot happen, but that's a very misleading statement ... there are rumors they will start marketing it this year ... but that's very different, and has no connection to when it may start construction.