Markham Aviva Canada | ?m | 12s | Remington Group | BDP Quadrangle

[CITY_LOVER]

Well they were never in the core, this is a big loss for Scarborough ... which keeps loosing jobs over the years. A couple years back State Farm left as well (to Newmarket) another 1000-2000 jobs. There have been more. Enbridge is about too ship out ~ 2500 people to Houston, again from Scarborough.

As much as the core prospers many other parts of Toronto don't.

Hi, not to make this thread about other topics of conversation but why is Enbridge moving that many people to Houston? Is it the usual consolidation of office staff? So many companies have done that since 2008!

And I didn't know that Enbridge had that many people in Scarborough. I feel so badly that Toronto will lose these jobs! Imagine on the other hand that they not only stayed in Toronto but moved from Scarborough to downtown Toronto! We could've had another 'Enbridge' office tower (such as Bay Adelaide III)!

 

[taal]

Enbridge's HQ has always been in Scarborough, or is it North York ? : - ) Not sure where the exact boundary is, right near Sheppard / Victoria Park.

Anyway they're moving all the jobs to Houston ... I believe the state offered them a lot more incentive to make such a move.


Anyway, that move I don't mind, this is something that isn't preventable so to speak and could have happened to any company in Toronto. Its all the 416 -> 905 relocations that hurt a lot, and this generally effects most regions in Toronto less the core / NYCC.

 

[canarob]

I would imagine that most of the office space in Scarborough will eventually be used for call centres and other cheaper uses since even with higher taxes, the space should be much cheaper due to the lack of demand. Some of it might even get converted into housing. I know parts of Scarborough are quite nice, but these tend to be the tucked away residential areas, not where most of the office space is located. As already mentioned, these are areas that 905ers and downtowners, fairly or not, tend to avoid because of reputation. Even with the Eglinton LRT and the Scarb Subway, I just can't see there being any kind of turnaround here, at least not for more "reputable" firms that are paying decent salaries. If anything, having better GO service will just move more jobs up north.

 

[Memph]

I completely disagree ... watch and see ... it won't happen. You could make the same argument for SCC, yet you see no new office construction and the existing office stock has some of the highest vacancy rates in the GTA.
I think what plays out here is just the reputation of the area in general, it sounds silly, and I completely agree it is; But I've heard on a few accounts (with smaller firms) that their employees would typically live in say Markham.

I think a big reason is that for a long time, the West of the GTA has had more pull than the East. I would say part of this is the airport and related employment areas, part of it is that there are more cities West of Toronto in Ontario (KWC, Hamilton, Guelph, London...), and also trade going from Toronto to the US is going to pass through the Western GTA rather than the Eastern GTA.

If you look at jobs:residents, the ratio is higher in Vaughan than Markham, higher in Etobicoke than Scarborough, and I think higher in Peel and Halton than in Durham. Markham has way more new housing than Scarborough, which means bigger and nicer/more modern, so it will attract more upper-middle class residents (and therefore jobs taking advantage of the local upper-middle class population) while Scarborough is more working class. Housing in Durham, Scarborough and Old Toronto's East End/East York is cheaper than the Western and Northern equivalents. Although I think improved transit in Scarborough will help, it still won't make it as desirable as the West and North.

 

[r2siv]

I think a big reason is that for a long time, the West of the GTA has had more pull than the East. I would say part of this is the airport and related employment areas, part of it is that there are more cities West of Toronto in Ontario (KWC, Hamilton, Guelph, London...), and also trade going from Toronto to the US is going to pass through the Western GTA rather than the Eastern GTA.

If you look at jobs:residents, the ratio is higher in Vaughan than Markham, higher in Etobicoke than Scarborough, and I think higher in Peel and Halton than in Durham. Markham has way more new housing than Scarborough, which means bigger and nicer/more modern, so it will attract more upper-middle class residents (and therefore jobs taking advantage of the local upper-middle class population) while Scarborough is more working class. Housing in Durham, Scarborough and Old Toronto's East End/East York is cheaper than the Western and Northern equivalents. Although I think improved transit in Scarborough will help, it still won't make it as desirable as the West and North.

Very good points. Development has swayed to the west not because of reputations as some of you keep mentioning but because of logistics. With Pearson and easier access to the US border on the west, there's an advantage to being in Western TO (Etobicoke), Mississauga, Brampton etc.

I think transportation is a much bigger factor than it is given credit. Scarborough is the most isolated part of Toronto. I remember a colleague of mine saying that she would quit her job if the office was moved to Scarborough because of how long it would take to commute there. I think Eglinton, BD, and Sheppard would do wonders for Scarbs. However, I don't know if it can reverse the loss of employment; I think the City needs to be more proactive in making the east end a more attractive location for employers.

PS: Enbridge headquarters is on the North York side of Victoria Park near Sheppard.

 

[AHK]

Enbridge's HQ has always been in Scarborough, or is it North York ? : - ) Not sure where the exact boundary is, right near Sheppard / Victoria Park. Anyway they're moving all the jobs to Houston ... I believe the state offered them a lot more incentive to make such a move. .

Enbridge corporate headquarters are in Calgary - not North York (or Scarborough). Enbridge is not relocating from North York to Houston.

Direct Energy (not Enbridge) is moving its corporate headquarters from North York to Houston. Direct Energy did acquire the Enbridge Home Services component as one of many acquisitions in North America, with the majority of its activity in the United States, hence the corporate office relocation to Houston.

 

[taal]

Ah sorry, yes Direct Energy ! Thanks for clarification.

 

[taal]

I think a big reason is that for a long time, the West of the GTA has had more pull than the East. I would say part of this is the airport and related employment areas, part of it is that there are more cities West of Toronto in Ontario (KWC, Hamilton, Guelph, London...), and also trade going from Toronto to the US is going to pass through the Western GTA rather than the Eastern GTA.

If you look at jobs:residents, the ratio is higher in Vaughan than Markham, higher in Etobicoke than Scarborough, and I think higher in Peel and Halton than in Durham. Markham has way more new housing than Scarborough, which means bigger and nicer/more modern, so it will attract more upper-middle class residents (and therefore jobs taking advantage of the local upper-middle class population) while Scarborough is more working class. Housing in Durham, Scarborough and Old Toronto's East End/East York is cheaper than the Western and Northern equivalents. Although I think improved transit in Scarborough will help, it still won't make it as desirable as the West and North.

I'm not too sure about that stat, I'm fairly sure Markham has a higher job ratio then Vaughan ... which is still dominated by warehousing -> very few jobs per square foot, where as Markham / Mississauga tend of more of a mix.
I think its more of a outer 416 vs inner 905 thing - but for many of the reasons you cited. Moreover houses in many parts of Scarborough still aren't cheap ! Making things like Markham potentially more attractive.

 

[canarob]

If you look at jobs:residents, the ratio is higher in Vaughan than Markham, higher in Etobicoke than Scarborough, and I think higher in Peel and Halton than in Durham. Markham has way more new housing than Scarborough, which means bigger and nicer/more modern, so it will attract more upper-middle class residents (and therefore jobs taking advantage of the local upper-middle class population) while Scarborough is more working class. Housing in Durham, Scarborough and Old Toronto's East End/East York is cheaper than the Western and Northern equivalents. Although I think improved transit in Scarborough will help, it still won't make it as desirable as the West and North.

I think part of the jobs numbers are due to how much more industrial the western suburbs are (with the exception of Oshawa). For example, Vaughan is mostly factories and warehouses, whereas Markham has far more office employment.

 

[AHK]

Ah sorry, yes Direct Energy ! Thanks for clarification.

Additional detail from the original Toronto Star article in January 2012 (over 2 years ago). Note - approximately 500 positions moving from North York, not 2,500. Also, the relocation was scheduled to be completed within 12 to 18 months from the January 2012 date, so the impact on jobs in the Victoria Park and Sheppard are should be well over by now.


'Direct Energy Toronto headquarters moving to Houston, Texas, impacting 500 jobs
Direct Energy chops 500 head office jobs in Toronto, citing too much regulation in Ontario

By: John Spears Business Reporter, Published on Fri Jan 20 2012
Citing Ontario’s failure to fully open energy markets to competition, Direct Energy is moving its corporate headquarters to Houston, eliminating 500 jobs in Toronto.

The company will continue to operate in Ontario, where it employs about 2,000 people servicing water heaters, heating and air conditioning units, and offering energy contracts for electricity and natural gas. But most of the corporate office staff will be laid off over the next 12 to 18 months as the company moves to Texas from the current headquarters on Sheppard Ave. E. near Victoria Park Ave.

Few of the Toronto staff will be offered positions in Houston, said spokeswoman Hilary Marshall. She said the move to Houston is consistent with the company’s outlook for expansion. “We’re a company with a growth strategy built on the need for deregulation,” she said.'

 

[maestro]

I have little concern that the old Aviva building won't find new tenants. This isn't Scarborough Centre that demands a premium.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Honestly I think the Scarborough centre office market is going to improve in a few years as Durham begins to take the brunt of suburban GTA growth. The 401 isn't horribly over capacity until you get past STC, and there are plans to extend the express collectors system into Ajax and have 10 lanes all the way through Oshawa. There will be an ever increasing population with easy access to STC (even if it is by car), and the subway is going to do miracles in terms of attractiveness of the area.

 

[Transportfan]

Very good points. Development has swayed to the west not because of reputations as some of you keep mentioning but because of logistics.

Actually, deep-rooted historical reputation is partly the reason for the west to be more desirable than the east, and its a pattern that holds in almost every city. It originates from the fact that the west sides of cities are upwind from drifting industrial smoke, hence wealthy areas tending to be located in the west and working-class districts and skid rows in the east. The concept became so entrenched that it has influenced development patterns to this day. It probably also explains why Whitby is the most popular place to live in the less-popular Durham Region because its seen as the Èwest endÈ* of Oshawa.

But nowadays with east-end commuters not having to drive into the sun, you'd think the trend would reverse itself.

PS: How do I bring the normal characters backÉ

 

[r2siv]

Actually, deep-rooted historical reputation is partly the reason for the west to be more desirable than the east, and its a pattern that holds in almost every city. It originates from the fact that the west sides of cities are upwind from drifting industrial smoke, hence wealthy areas tending to be located in the west and working-class districts and skid rows in the east. The concept became so entrenched that it has influenced development patterns to this day. It probably also explains why Whitby is the most popular place to live in the less-popular Durham Region because its seen as the Èwest endÈ* of Oshawa.

But nowadays with east-end commuters not having to drive into the sun, you'd think the trend would reverse itself.

PS: How do I bring the normal characters backÉ

That's an interesting point and I can see that shaping communities in the past, but I don't know if that's relevant anymore. Some of the most troublesome areas are in Etobicoke and western North York (Rexdale, Jane and Finch) and a lot of wealthy neighborhoods are north and slightly east of the core.

To get normal characters, you need to change your language setting to "US" from "Canadian French". There might be a little keyboard icon on the bottom right hand corner.

 

[taal]

Honestly I think the Scarborough centre office market is going to improve in a few years as Durham begins to take the brunt of suburban GTA growth. The 401 isn't horribly over capacity until you get past STC, and there are plans to extend the express collectors system into Ajax and have 10 lanes all the way through Oshawa. There will be an ever increasing population with easy access to STC (even if it is by car), and the subway is going to do miracles in terms of attractiveness of the area.

Your not alone with these views, not that I agree, but there were several articles published 2-3 years that Scarborough center could see more office growth, and for the exact reasons you cite. Traffic in the popular office nodes in the 905 are absolutely brutal and getting much worse.


Personally I don't think it'll be enough, and activity hasn't increased ... at least yet ... but time will tell.