Toronto 475 Yonge Street | 255.76m | 78s | KingSett Capital | BDP Quadrangle

cd concept said:
If possible this design could set a precedence on Yonge . Creating a U podium setbacks to leave room for small cafe gardens with trees and benches etc. This would widen Yonge St sidewalks for pedestrians street performers and venders. And alleviate the canyon look to the streets. Buildings with small lots can also create this U podium setback on the ground levels first few floors. Having outdoor garden cafes etc under the high rise building.
This would make Yonge St a very green !! pedestrian street !!
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bilked said:
I get the sense that courtyard is for automobiles, rather than actual people. I'd hate to see that use fronting Yonge street.
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The City will not want cars turning in from Yonge Street. It's against policy to add new vehicular access across busy sidewalks if there are any other options available. That's not to say that a pedestrian forecourt on Yonge would be unwelcome, though proponents would need to convince planners of the benefits of breaking the street wall they envision for Yonge. (Right across the street from here, there's some push-back against revealing the base of the clock tower. Not sure what the current state of that is: I hope we get a nearly free-standing clock tower and resulting wider sidewalks.)

I think that this proposal is absolutely bound to change in some ways before it's approved.

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I'm surprised to see this proposal because they're actually renovating the hotel right now. They've been modernizing the rooms, floor by floor.

In context I think it might make more sense to have the forecourt at the back of the project, the way they've proposed it. It pushes the vehicular traffic to the back of the site, and gives continuity to the parkette on the north side of Alexander. Yonge ends up with a continuous streetwall, which could (hopefully) be animated with patios and the like. And the separation from the side streets doesn't seem out of line. Wood has several buildings with nearly zero setback along the south side, and the north side is lined with a retaining wall for most of its length.

This does make for a remarkable amount of development between College and Wellesley though, and I just hope we don't completely lose the finer grained feeling of the street as a result. The hotel really doesn't do any favours to Yonge (it's just the Second Cup at one end of the building and the Wendy's at the other, with that long frontage from the restaurant in the middle), but between this, TeaHouse, YC, and the 460 Yonge proposal there will be several blocks that are radically altered
 
hotels get renovated all the time, all a hotel room reno means is they aren't expecting to close for the next 5 years or so, which is reasonable.
 
This may go in phases as well - with one half taken down and replaced at a time… so who knows?! (But yes, it's a ways out yet.)

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Mongo said:
Hyperbole much?
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No, there should be strict zoning laws. There should be enforced rules on setbacks. There should be enforced rules on height for every block. There should be enforced rules on density. Etc.

If I wanted to build a 40 storey building, all I need to do is propose a 50 storey building with a bad podium and minimum width of sidewalks. Add in some space for big retail. Then after the community objects, I decrease the height to what I wanted anyway, improve the podium and scale the retail to keep out big boxes. Oh, and make the sidewalks wider to allow for cafe tables and to contribute to the public realm. Then promise some tiny three bedrooms that might be bought and finished as two bedrooms anyway. Approved.

That's essentially what happened with 501 on the north side although of course nobody can say what the developer wanted before making changes to the plans.
 
mgl said:
No, there should be strict zoning laws. There should be enforced rules on setbacks. There should be enforced rules on height for every block. There should be enforced rules on density. Etc.

If I wanted to build a 40 storey building, all I need to do is propose a 50 storey building with a bad podium and minimum width of sidewalks. Add in some space for big retail. Then after the community objects, I decrease the height to what I wanted anyway, improve the podium and scale the retail to keep out big boxes. Oh, and make the sidewalks wider to allow for cafe tables and to contribute to the public realm. Then promise some tiny three bedrooms that might be bought and finished as two bedrooms anyway. Approved.

That's essentially what happened with 501 on the north side although of course nobody can say what the developer wanted before making changes to the plans.
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We have Lanterra's original proposal for that site in the thread, so we do have an idea of what they were proposing.

If you want strictly followed zoning regulations for new developments, then Toronto will have to zone realistically. For the most part, however, other than stable neighbourhoods, there are very few realistically zoned areas of Toronto. Since the provincial government passed the Places To Grow Act in 2005, Toronto's zoning has been obsolete. Its failure to up-zone since has resulted in the shoot-high, negotiate, if-negotiations-fail-probably-go-to-the-OMB system that most development applications follow today.

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whatever said:
I'm surprised to see this proposal because they're actually renovating the hotel right now. They've been modernizing the rooms, floor by floor.

In context I think it might make more sense to have the forecourt at the back of the project, the way they've proposed it. It pushes the vehicular traffic to the back of the site, and gives continuity to the parkette on the north side of Alexander. Yonge ends up with a continuous streetwall, which could (hopefully) be animated with patios and the like. And the separation from the side streets doesn't seem out of line. Wood has several buildings with nearly zero setback along the south side, and the north side is lined with a retaining wall for most of its length.

This does make for a remarkable amount of development between College and Wellesley though, and I just hope we don't completely lose the finer grained feeling of the street as a result. The hotel really doesn't do any favours to Yonge (it's just the Second Cup at one end of the building and the Wendy's at the other, with that long frontage from the restaurant in the middle), but between this, TeaHouse, YC, and the 460 Yonge proposal there will be several blocks that are radically altered
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Speaking of which, this just came out today:

The world’s largest full-service Courtyard Marriott Toronto Downtown completes their $14.5 million Transformation May 2016

The $14.5 million “Transformation 2016”, when complete May 2016, will see the world’s largest full-service Marriott Courtyard hotel in downtown Toronto offering redesigned guest rooms with a residential feel, tone-on-tone décor offering relaxation and abundant comfort along with stylish bathrooms, new corridors, new Marriott beds, in-room safes, mini fridges, 60 TV channels and FREE Wi-Fi! The guest rooms are some of the most spacious in Toronto with many features attractive to millennials and generation x. Rooms are available now!

Our redesigned contemporary meeting space is available now. This conference and event space accommodates up to 400 guests. There is new expanded meeting room space that provides additional meeting and meal events for up to 200 people.

Guests will appreciate the refreshed lobby and new lobby Bistro. The lobby continues to feature the Go Board that offers the latest news, maps and recommendations for local dining, shopping and attractions displayed on a 52” screen. The hotel offers an indoor lap pool, whirlpool, 24-hour fitness centre, valet and concierge.

The same heart-of-downtown-Toronto location remains. Located next to Yonge and College Streets in a residential-commercial neighbourhood that is under an exciting modernization. Experience how urban Torontonians live and sample the local restaurants and shopping next to the hotel. The Courtyard by Marriott Hotel is next to major a business districts, entertainment, shopping and subway transit. It is only a 9 minute walk to the Eaton Centre and a 14 minute walk to Bloor Yorkville area.

Visit us at: www.marriott.com/yyzcy
Visit our Transformation website for updates: www.Courtyardtorontorenovation.com​
 
I too have always wondered why some hotels (or even restaurants) decide to do extensive renovations with developments proposed or envisioned down the line. The Delta - Eaton Chelsea comes to mind, albeit a slightly different situation with that one.
I guess with hotels or customer oriented establishments, brand image or experience is worth the extra effort or budget, even short term.
 
My take is that KingSett do not expect this rezoning here to be a quick process: the Marriott will presumably remain open for several more years before the site is redeveloped.

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Well, I don't know what the profit margins in a hotel are, but at 14.5 million for the renovation I'd have to assume they're planning to make their money back or they wouldn't have done it.

KingSett might also just be getting this one ready for a much later launch. I know they're a big firm, but it would only make sense to deal with one proposal at a time. Maybe Yonge/Gerrard needs to go first?
 
I would say that KingSett is taking a page from Allied REIT's playbook and getting all of their properties in order for bigger, better, brighter futures, so that when the time is right for any particular redevelopment to proceed, the new zoning will be in place and won't hold up the process.

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Kingsett manages growth and income funds. They don't build. They invest. They open a new billion dollar growth fund every one or two years. Cresford is developing the condos at Yonge & Gerrard. Innvest purchased the hotel. (of course, one of Kingsett's funds owns a minor stake in Innvest)
 
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