Toronto Grainger | 124.5m | 40s | Fitzrovia | Turner Fleischer

Except that talking about height alone is meaningless - how high, how prevalant, and where? Supporting higher density doesn't mean supporting the built form that is this particular proposal. That is the crux of the issue. Toronto as a growing city right now is like one that is trying to run before it can even walk.

AoD

I agree it is the crux of an issue. Even more funadamental for me is first establishing what kind of density any given person wants. Before that is clear to me there is no way I could possibly say what is appropriate for achieving different people's goals. I know that my vision may require another 200 000 units downtown (again, roughy 17 sq km and 600 000 people), so I can say that this development is not dense enough for me. Clearly not everyone wants what I want. I don't think they should and have never suggested otherwise. That is why I haven't spent even one clause of one sentence trying to persuade anyone to think that they should agree this proposal lacks the density to achieve their desired end result. If I am to specifically respond to what any one individual specifically wants then I need more specifics.
 
I think something that advocates of either height or density miss, is the desire of existing residents to maintain the 'character' or 'vibe' for which they paid.

It's not merely protecting the investment, as it's entirely possible, if not likely that additional density will drive up the value of one's home.

But protecting the idea of home you and/or your family fell in love with....

That does not mean any area can or should get a pass to stand still.

Nor that addition density, and/or height can't or shouldn't be added.

Rather it's a matter of context sensitivity.

If I purchased a home on a street full of Victorians with tall trees, and back yards that leave an illusion of privacy, then that is what I wish to retain.

But that doesn't preclude greater density.

What often happens now, is someone buying a larger old home, with a character that suits the area, and opting to plonk a total non-sequiter both in architectural style and in
the nature of way the new density arrives (likely by putting 2 homes, on what was one lot, and probably removing a mature tree or two in the process.

Instead it was possible to covert the garage out back into laneway housing, w/no adverse visual effect, and probably a safer laneway; it is also possible to carve the existing home into a duplex on the inside,
and/or add a second entry way on the side or rear of the property that was unobtrusive.

Or, one might replace one home with two, but create the optical illusion of 1 unit through design, making an effort to preserve that majestic oak, or pay homage to the architecture of that hood
with the use of brick and so on.

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Likewise , one can add mid-rise density to nearby mainstreets w/o much opposition.

But it requires some thought.

I have yet to see a mass uprising over a 3 or 4 floor street wall.........so the magical use of setbacks to create the impression of 4-floors, particularly if nothing nearby is greater than 3, makes sense.

Understanding that homes in behind that main street row don't want their yard in perpetual shadow, or the feeling of being spied on.

So using set backs at the rear, terracing, attractive fences, poking strategic 'holes' in a building that will let light flow through, proactively offering to made adjustments to adjacent back yards (a free privacy screen for a deck, or a pergola to maintain greater privacy).

****

The challenge, too often in this City is proposals that lack sensitivity to their context; and/or which seek to maximize density/height, often to recover the price paid for a site.

The City shouldn't need to impose endless rules on developers; more developers should make it seem unnecessary.....

Diversity of building types isn't sufficient; diversity of 'feels' and 'looks' for different areas ought to be the goal, except where everyone (or the vast majority) agree, a certain typology is not longer workable
and not practical to rework.

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Back to this proposal. Not great, the modern needs to be set back from the heritage, more so than they are.

The height, while not completely absurd, represents overbuilding on this particular site.
 
I would say the height as presented is absurd. A tower of 107 metres tapering back towards the centre of the site wouldn't look as ridiculously out of place with the established neighbourhood context. I just don't see why not continue with the standards set by the condo developments of the last 5 to 10 years instead of constantly reinventing the parameters.

I don't think planning policy imposes enough rules before a proposal is considered. It leaves everyone questioning and, for owners/ developers, how far to push things.
 
"I think something that advocates of either height or density miss, is the desire of existing residents to maintain the 'character' or 'vibe' for which they paid."

I agree completely, I recently moved into the Abbey lane lofts and what attracted me to the area versus King West was the lower density and more laid back vibe of the neighborhood. I would hate to fast forward 5 years and have a similar neighborhood to the one at Richmond and Peter or York St. with towers everywhere. At the same time I have no objections against reasonably sized mid-size developments that retain the character of the neighborhood by maintaining heritage structures and providing retail / commercial spaces geared towards the current businesses in the areas (ie. art and furniture galleries, design stores etc.)
 
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Alternative view of the site.
 

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Northern Light,

I agree with most of what you said and I also cringe at the very thought of levelling rows of Victorian era houses to put up non-sequiturs. I also agree that we need different vibes in different areas to maintain a healthy and interesting city. The question for me is where do you draw boundaries, on what basis, and for how long? I struggle with the fact that using this reasoning, and applied a certain way, almost none of what we have downtown would have been built because once upon a time there were no tall buildings. What should I think and say about that?

There are an endless number of pithy retorts and thoughtful lines of reasoning I could imagine people using to come to their own subjective view about what is okay and what is not. Perhaps the difference is that Toronto was a young city back then and so it was still developing into the mature city it has now become. But is that right? Mature in what sense? We are still young compared to many great cities around the world. Do the future residents of Toronto 2150 want us to pull the brakes and adopt a more hostile approach to changing cityscapes? This is just what the forebearers of this city most of us love did not do. Again, any argument purporting to be in opposition to this is refuted a hundred times over by every tall building and billions of pounds of steel, glass, aluminum and other building materials. A concrete fact if you will. I think I am more the torchbearer of the spirit that gives us the vibrant downtown we have than those who say this proposal is too dense.

Just imagine if 1950s Toronto and beyond had said no, we can't go much taller in these "established" downtown neighbourshoods. Would that be better? I don't know, but I'm quite happy not to be asking the converse.

In sum, my problem is not with your logic or sentiment as I broadly agree with you. My trouble is this reasoning can be applied equally as to bestow a beautiful, bountiful legacy, or a stinting and stifling relative stagnation. All here on this board want the former, which is why I enjoy this website so much and find it so interesting.
 
How exactly is putting established neighbourhood context before height (ultimately, this is the root of your stance) in the spirit of building a vibrant downtown? Basically implying planning is a load of hooey for the sake of more height.
 
I think he's questioning why an established neighborhood context is necessarily and inherently sacrosanct and correct when there are examples of newer and changing contexts being just as or more valuable.
 
How exactly is putting established neighbourhood context before height (ultimately, this is the root of your stance) in the spirit of building a vibrant downtown? Basically implying planning is a load of hooey for the sake of more height.

I'm saying I think we are all here unanimously grateful that this attitude has not been convincingly and consequentially persuasive throughout the entirety of our history as a city. I don't see that implies, or even hints, that planning is a load of hooey. I do not, for example, think that a chemical manufacturing facility should be allowed to be built on Ward's island. I also don't think there should be no upper limit on height anywhere downtown, I just tend to think the limits (always in flux anyway) should tip slightly more towards a higher number than do some others.

I think if we were to sit down face-to-face our main difference of opinion would be on how much there actually is to reconcile between our two lines of reasoning. I think I may ultimately just want a more densely populated downtown than do you. I think that explains most of our apparent disagreements.
 

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