Toronto 2150 Lake Shore | 215.75m | 67s | First Capital | Allies and Morrison
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kali
Active Member
Judging by Amare's post, that outdated 70s SFH political culture built more parks than today's more urban minded development
I get what you're saying, but I think you're overstating your case @concrete_and_light but yes, more high quality parks are needed, not just sun scorched empty wastelands. @Northern Light let's get those trees planted!
concrete_and_light
Active Member
Judging by Amare's post, that outdated 70s SFH political culture built more parks than today's more urban minded development
I get what you're saying, but I think you're overstating your case @concrete_and_light but yes, more high quality parks are needed, not just sun scorched empty wastelands. @Northern Light let's get those trees planted!
I definitely see what you mean and when I read Amare's post I thought the same, that it went against what I was saying a bit. It made me reflect: why is it that our political culture was better at making these investments in the past, but we've become so unable to now?
I haven't fully thought it through and of course it is the result of a complex web of factors, but I feel like an aspect of this is the ossification of politics and society as a means to create change and build for the future. People got comfortable with a certain way the world was working — working for some. Going to university affordably turned into a stable job turned into a house, turned into ever-increasing property wealth and a theoretical good life for your children (climate change and growing inequality and the housing crisis have wrecked that, but people have a hard time reckoning with how they've failed the next generation so people are largely in denial about that).
People emerged from the Cold War with a certainty of the correctness of the neoliberal consensus and went into prosperous times ready for smooth sailing through their adulthoods into their retirements, into the end of history. Life's good paying low taxes in the end of history.
And as this culture took over our political systems they just... well they just kinda haven't really done much. I'm not sure they know that they can? That they're allowed?
The parks and other significant investments in Toronto's civic infrastructure (even the suspect ones like the Gardiner or the suburbs themselves) were products of a political and civic culture that is completely different from the one now — coming out of WWII seeing the collective mobilization effort of that conflict and the ability of society when challenged, modernism giving a sense of the potential for deliberate and designed transformation of society and the earth and human potential. Society tried to do things, even if some of them ended up not working out.
Now we have basically abdicated doing anything. Ah jeez you know it's just the way it is? Budgets are tight, if we upset the economy too much, you know, it will all fall apart... So we can't, we just can't. We wish we could do something we really do.
We fund things with the coins we find in the cracks, or can only manage something with some kind of fabled private partnership.
The political weight that holds this status quo is attached to the format of the past — the structure of the city, the private backyards, the ever-increasing property wealth, the smooth-sailing streets to drive along — but this status quo has lost sight of the investment that created that world.
And as everyone retreated, we lost our ability to build a park, to build and foster civic space. It is ironic as you point out that now as we value urbanism so much more we have such terrible urban experience and investment in the city. But I don't think this is really reflective of the failure of urbanism as an idea or a political movement, it's more that literally for once could we just let progressive thoughtful urbanists be in charge and make some good decisions? Urbanist policy and ideas have never been given a chance to bloom.
It is the case with the 2150 Lake Shore development that thoughtful forward thinking investments are coming through to the city in the form of a private development. Neoliberalism works... occasionally! But there are some things — major parks, infrastructure, etc. — that really only the city can do and we are not always so lucky to see such thoughtful plans from developers as we do here. As we see every day in these threads and as we move through our lives in the city, most of the city is falling apart, built on the cheap for investors, feeding a market that drives inequality and stifles the life and culture of the city through crushing unaffordability, with barely any investment put into the things that make a city work and make a city a place to live a good life and a beautiful place. The city has been stuck on pause through the destruction and trauma of the Ford era and the timid status quo of the Tory era as we wait for our city's voters and political leadership to realize that a city is something that needs to be *built*.
Anyway, those are just some thoughts. Just theorizing, but regardless of of what is the cause of this inability of our city to get things done, I think there is a growing awareness that something is going to have to change or else Toronto's going to hit a breaking point of inequality and lack of infrastructure. To some extent I think we're already locked-in into hitting this breaking point since investments even if begun now will take years, decades to make an impact. It is going to be a rough next while for the city, but hopefully a stronger civic culture can be built from the hardship and the awareness it brings.
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Koops65
Senior Member
A zoom-in and flyover:
W. K. Lis
Superstar
One thing I hope that will happen is that a different architect will be designing each different building. Don't make twins or triplicate or quadruplets or quintuplets or sextuplets or whatever number of buildings looking all the same.
Bjays92
Senior Member
I see a lot of people talking about transit concerns here. Between all the additional density in humber bay as well as oxfords massive project in Mississauga, I can't be the only one who thinks a subway line extension in this direction should at least be considered right?
It could even verge on being rapid and only have a handful of stops, in the super high density areas, making commute times very quick.
It could even verge on being rapid and only have a handful of stops, in the super high density areas, making commute times very quick.
DopeyFish
Active Member
well, there's the waterfront LRT/streetcar and a GO stop
the only thing left is a potential (and probably expensive) extension to the Ontario Line... which might be a bit overkill considering it's going to be more a point of origin and not a destination
FormerTorontonianBackInTO
New Member
I agree with DopeyFish that the LRT and GO stop are more than sufficient to connect to downtown. The Ontario line would be connect indirectly to Humber Bay through the LRT and GO stops at Exhibition Place stop where all 3 meet. Personally, I'm more curious to see if they work out good connections to the Bloor Line (I'm interested because of the impending intensification around the new Etobicoke civic center) and a potential future BRT/LRT on the Queensway (I'm eager to find out if someone pushes for office and residential along the underdeveloped stretch of Queensway between Kipling and Sherway, noting that the stretch east of that is already being redeveloped - though I presume that the OP employment designation is going to be a tough/long time hurdle even just along the perimeter of Queensway). A bus getting caught in traffic along Park Lawn south of Queensway could experience serious delays....though that won't be resolved until someone manages to redevelop the food terminal - speaking of: now that there is a GO station going in I'd love to see that as a trigger of the relocation of the food terminal and the development of that lot (as access to the GO station would make that a great site for more office and residential, perhaps even doing something like live theatre/sports venue to make the area more of a destination) which could trigger the development of all the lots along its perimeter on Park Lawn as well as Queensway, as well as the development of the Sobeys plaza lands (the one thing that I wish the current 2150 Lakeshore proposal did was to anticipate some sort of future connection to the lands north of the highway/train track, which will be difficult to do with the proposed layout and the fact that they just added another road cutting off those lands from anything north....though that's my only complaint about 2150 outside of the fact that I would have liked more office space to liven the place up during the day)
I sometimes wonder whether there is any chance that the new Jane LRT might one day connect to (and merge with) the waterfront LRT around South Kingsway, which would give Humber Bay (and anyone getting off the future GO train stop at Humber Bay) a connection to the Bloor Line...though this would require running the LRT underground as there aren't any roads there that are wide enough to connect to it (which likely makes it prohibitively expensive)
Re what Bjays92 said about Mississauga needing a connection: I also agree but ultimately I figure that a Mississauga subway connection would come through the extension of the Bloor line that picks up some passengers at Sherway and maybe even the Dixie outlet mall area (which could also be redeveloped on both sides of that highway), before making it to Mississauga City Center....though I get the sense that with the LRT line running across Hurontario it's less likely that there will be a subway line connecting directly to the town center (as cool as that would be) as it creates alternative connection options for the subway along Hurontario
I sometimes wonder whether there is any chance that the new Jane LRT might one day connect to (and merge with) the waterfront LRT around South Kingsway, which would give Humber Bay (and anyone getting off the future GO train stop at Humber Bay) a connection to the Bloor Line...though this would require running the LRT underground as there aren't any roads there that are wide enough to connect to it (which likely makes it prohibitively expensive)
Re what Bjays92 said about Mississauga needing a connection: I also agree but ultimately I figure that a Mississauga subway connection would come through the extension of the Bloor line that picks up some passengers at Sherway and maybe even the Dixie outlet mall area (which could also be redeveloped on both sides of that highway), before making it to Mississauga City Center....though I get the sense that with the LRT line running across Hurontario it's less likely that there will be a subway line connecting directly to the town center (as cool as that would be) as it creates alternative connection options for the subway along Hurontario
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Bjays92
Senior Member
After going and refreshing myself as to where the Toronto subway lines currently run I agree any mississauga would likely be an extension of the bloor line.
At the very least having some sort of direct connection from Humber Bay to Jane or Old Mill would probably be ideal
kali
Active Member
Is there any redevelopment plan in the offing for the food terminal site?
Northern Light
Superstar
If you mean the site in its entirety, definitely not.
The government only announced a few months ago that the Food Terminal is staying at that location; implicitly for at least another couple of decades anyway.
That said, there may room to do something at periphery of the site.
But no such proposals have been brought forward.
W. K. Lis
Superstar
It's an employment area. If you work there, living next door would be a plus.
toaster29
Active Member
The lack of discussion about bringing the subway here is what is wrong with Toronto transit planning. These kinds of densities don't exist anywhere in North America without access to a rapid transit system. GO/Metrolinx is Regional Rail, not Local Rapid Transit. But go ahead and built that Subway to Scarborough, where the densities will be 1/4 of what we have here.
W. K. Lis
Superstar
Future Park Lawn GO Station would serve 5,000 customers a day
From link.
To read the Updated Initial Business Case, click here.
Who needs a subway?
What is needed is a fare discount (which Doug Ford cancelled March 31st) between the TTC and GO Transit (see link).
From link.
To read the Updated Initial Business Case, click here.
Who needs a subway?
What is needed is a fare discount (which Doug Ford cancelled March 31st) between the TTC and GO Transit (see link).
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kali
Active Member
Which line do you see being extended to this location? As Walter mentioned above, this entire site is within a 5 minute walk of the future GO station - which will have nearly subway level frequencies. And given that about half (IIRC) of HBS residents work downtown, this particular stop on the regional network will do the trick for this area.