Toronto 100 Queens Quay at Sugar Wharf | 117.34m | 25s | Menkes | B+H

[kkgg7]

It occurs to me that $200 million is a lot of money, even with the size of the plot of land. I don't have the figures, but on an area basis, the asking land price must be similar to that of the later phases of Southcore. Do Southcore land prices require Southcore densities?

that will be nice. but it will be weird to have a sugar refinery in the middle of a financial district.

 

[gristle]

Yes, that's it! The new LCBO HQ housed in a bottle-shaped tower.

And just think about how many wine bottles are greeen...

 

[interchange42]

That is one very large LCBO that would be in need of relocation.

I'm not convinced that such a large store would reappear somewhere very close by: the St Lawrence Market store is being enlarged significantly, plus there's a fairly large new store going in at 333 King East. Meanwhile the flagship Summerhill store has never quite met sales expectations (as best as I know), so along with the other incremental upgrades to stores here and there in central Toronto, I'd be surprised if a new huge store opened on this site the moment this one closed.

All that said, it would not be a surprise to see a more modestly sized new store show up somewhere else in the area, like in the base of Monde, or one of the Bayside projects, etc., etc.

42

 

[taal]

The loss 3500 jobs downtown, blue collar or not, seems pretty significant. That's like a fairly large office tower in the core vacating (probably 600,000+ square feet).

As someone mentioned you'd hope they'd set aside a certain amount of land for employment use.

 

[Northern Light]

I'm not convinced that such a large store would reappear somewhere very close by: the St Lawrence Market store is being enlarged significantly, plus there's a fairly large new store going in at 333 King East. Meanwhile the flagship Summerhill store has never quite met sales expectations (as best as I know), so along with the other incremental upgrades to stores here and there in central Toronto, I'd be surprised if a new huge store opened on this site the moment this one closed.

All that said, it would not be a surprise to see a more modestly sized new store show up somewhere else in the area, like in the base of Monde, or one of the Bayside projects, etc., etc.

42

Perhaps, 42.

I don't know the internal figures, but its my understanding that Queen's Quay and Summerhill typically are the top 2 stores in the province in sales.

Remember its not just the end-consumer, many restaurants shop at the LCBO too; and they need parking to take stuff out by the case.

I remember a sales person telling me that was why the old Coxwell/O'Connor store was still around, it wasn't walk-up traffic, but all the Greektown restaurants that picked up their booze there.

With that said, that info is purely anecdotal and I can't back it up at all.

 

[Northern Light]

The loss 3500 jobs downtown, blue collar or not, seems pretty significant. That's like a fairly large office tower in the core vacating (probably 600,000+ square feet).

As someone mentioned you'd hope they'd set aside a certain amount of land for employment use.

I don't believe that's right. 3,500 is the number of full-time retail employees province wide. I'm sure the warehouse employs a small fraction of that number.

Though I'd still like to see those jobs stay in the City of Toronto somewhere. Perhaps that portion of the Portlands being reserved to stay industrial?

 

[interchange42]

Perhaps, 42.

I don't know the internal figures, but its my understanding that Queen's Quay and Summerhill typically are the top 2 stores in the province in sales.

Remember its not just the end-consumer, many restaurants shop at the LCBO too; and they need parking to take stuff out by the case.

I remember a sales person telling me that was why the old Coxwell/O'Connor store was still around, it wasn't walk-up traffic, but all the Greektown restaurants that picked up their booze there.

With that said, that info is purely anecdotal and I can't back it up at all.

Anecdotal as it may be, that sounds pretty reasonable to me, and the restaurant angle was not something that I had considered. They will want to take that into consideration of course!

42

 

[taal]

I don't believe that's right. 3,500 is the number of full-time retail employees province wide. I'm sure the warehouse employs a small fraction of that number.

Though I'd still like to see those jobs stay in the City of Toronto somewhere. Perhaps that portion of the Portlands being reserved to stay industrial?

Ah !, you know if I take a step back 3500 seems a little extreme for a warehousing operation, even given the headquarters.

Not sure the portlands will realistically stay industrial in the long term. It would be nice for them to stay. People always site the 905 but there is a lot of industrial land in the outer 416.

Actually here's an interesting fact to you, average land prices are CHEAPER in the 416 for industrial land then the 905 on the whole.

 

[pw20]

The LCBO employees 3500 people full-time across all of its owned stores.

I would be surprised if more than 10% had "head office" functions. The distribution jobs will undoubtedly be lost, but the 300 HQ jobs can be easily put into about 50,000 of office space elsewhere.

I believe there is a LCBO in the Loblaws too is there not?

 

[Edward Skira]

Yes there is a small LCBO in the Loblaws to the east.

 

[k10ery]

I'm a bit surprised that there doesnt seem to be any sentimentality for the heritage buildings here. The long narrow building that runs parallel to the Gardiner at the north end of the site seems to hold some interest for me and I'd like to see that portion remain. But at this point where the Ontario government seems to be moving into fire sale mode I suppose there will be little consideration of the heritage value and developers would like to see the slate wiped clean. I guess my concern is that this area is going to become an extension of the sterile Southcore / MLS neighbourhood...

I agree. I'd like to see the whole facade stay as a podium for whatever they build above.

The loss 3500 jobs downtown, blue collar or not, seems pretty significant. That's like a fairly large office tower in the core vacating (probably 600,000+ square feet).

As someone mentioned you'd hope they'd set aside a certain amount of land for employment use.

Why? They don't pay property tax right? And I thought the PILs were peanuts.

 

[TOareaFan]

The LCBO employees 3500 people full-time across all of its owned stores.

I would be surprised if more than 10% had "head office" functions. The distribution jobs will undoubtedly be lost, but the 300 HQ jobs can be easily put into about 50,000 of office space elsewhere.

I believe there is a LCBO in the Loblaws too is there not?

keep in mind, though, the motivation is purely financial. swapping one core location for another is likely just gonna reduce the gain.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Highly doubt any office jobs need to stay in the core. Depending on how the site is redeveloped, replacing those jobs shouldn't be a hugely difficult task (and I would be very disappointed if it doesn't contain any office component). And re: facade - I thought the building is a lot weaker than the OPP HQ in this regards.

AoD

 

[christiesplits]

I'm not convinced that such a large store would reappear somewhere very close by: the St Lawrence Market store is being enlarged significantly, plus there's a fairly large new store going in at 333 King East. Meanwhile the flagship Summerhill store has never quite met sales expectations (as best as I know), so along with the other incremental upgrades to stores here and there in central Toronto, I'd be surprised if a new huge store opened on this site the moment this one closed.

All that said, it would not be a surprise to see a more modestly sized new store show up somewhere else in the area, like in the base of Monde, or one of the Bayside projects, etc., etc.

42

The Queen's Quay (#217) store is the flagship of the LCBO. It is, and always has been, a huge destination store with ample parking and the largest Vintages selection in the province. It current holds the highest sales for restaurants, and either the highest or second highest sales for households. There is no way that the LCBO would not replace it either on site or nearby.

I am not sure what this means for the head office location. The LCBO rents a few floors at One Yonge, has regional offices in London and Sudbury, and warehouses in Peel, Durham and Thunder Bay.

 

[Big Daddy]

If whoever buys this site must pay $200 million, then I expect that it will need to be built at Southcore densities to make a profit for the developer. Adding in the Toronto Star lands (possible supertall?) and even the Pier 27 development (is it one or two 35s towers in the later phases?), and we would end up with another Southcore (at least in terms of density), east of Yonge.

As i listened to the announcement on the news today I understood that The $200 million was not just the gains from the sale of the land but also included efficiencies gained in streamlining the LCBO. Hard to say what the land price might be but I'm pretty sure it's not $200 million.