Thornhill

[jaycola]

Increased density may be a key issue in the upcoming elections in Vaughan. The Comments from candidates and local activists seem to be in direct opposition to the stated goals of Vaughan, York Region and the province for increasing densities in specified corridors. Some of the quotes here are truly laughable.

See the site here
New Condo Site

Townhouse proposal replaced by more condo towers at New Westminster and BeverlyGlen

Vaughan greenlights changes to official plan - Thornhill Liberal Mar 4, 2010 - Caroline Grech

Move could mean more condo development
Condominium construction is a way of life in southern York Region. However, a group of residents in Vaughan are protesting the city's plan to amend the official plan, a move that could lead to more condos being built. Staff Photo/Steve Somerville
‘I’m hearing a lot of people talk out of all four sides of their mouth. Are you suggesting the car should be encouraged because we live in the suburbs? We can’t put our heads in the sand.’ Peter Meffe Vaughan councillor

The City of Vaughan has voted to change their official plan that may result in the building of new condominiums. Do you believe Vaughan is being over-developed? E-mail your responses kchampion@yrmg.com
Despite residents’ protests, a plan to increase density in a Thornhill neighbourhood may go ahead after council voted to amend their official plan to accommodate the change.
Liberty Development proposed a change in the city’s official plan to allow two more buildings at the intersection of New Westminster Drive and North Park Road.
The original plan called for seven buildings in the area and council has given the green light to have as many as nine buildings in the area.
But the proposition made residents who live in the area unhappy with what they call an already crowded area with more cars and people than space.
The addition to the area increases the number of residential units by 274.
“In downtown Toronto, it is not unusual to have condo dwellers (who) live on public transit alone,” said Dr. Gila Martow, a neighbourhood resident. “Further north— near the 401 — we might see two people sharing one car. The reality of Thornhill is that we often have two people in one condo unit who both own and drive cars everyday.”
Ms Martow is running for office in the Thornhill ward.“Green roof does not replace green space,” she added.
Her comments were met with protest from some members of council including Maple/Kleinburg Councillor Peter Meffe.
“I’m hearing a lot of people talk out of all four sides of their mouth,” he said. “Are you suggesting the car should be encouraged because we live in the suburbs?
“We can’t put our heads in the sand.”
But traffic congestion was one of many concerns brought to council by residents.
The size of the units, blocked views from already existing buildings and parking were all concerns.
However, in a surprise move, Barry Horosko, a lawyer who represents Liberty Development, stated his client is offering some of the residents, whose views would be obstructed by the new buildings, a swap to a unit in the new building.
The company will even pick up the moving costs if residents want to move out of their unit to another unit similar in size in the new building.
However, residents continue to protest.
A petition with 50 signatures was presented by Karen Maizell, a property manager at one of the buildings on Disera Drive.
A written deputation was also filed by Marvin Fajertag a resident of a building on Disera Drive.
“This proposal does not qualify as high density housing, but rather will result in extreme overcrowding and congestion which bring with them many costly and dangerous conditions, including increased noise, dirt, garbage, pet waste and damage, parking shortfalls, traffic tie-ups and accidents and an influx of transients and an unstable population residing in the project’s smaller units,” Mr. Fajertag said.
Eva Coplevitch doesn’t have a problem with high density.
“It’s fine to have high density, but where do we draw the line?” she said. “North Park (road) cannot accommodate all the extra units. It just can’t be done.”
Increased crime in the Bathurst and Centre Street area was also pointed out by residents.
Concerned with safety, Councillor Alan Shefman contact York Regional Police about crime statistics for the area and found out that it was a very safe area.
“I spoke with the superintendent of District 4 and he told me there was very few reports,” he said, adding that if residents have concerns police are more than willing to visit the area.
The Places to Grow plan drawn up by the Ontario government requires municipalities to increase densities along designated corridors, but the increased density has led to residents and city officials butting heads on numerous high density projects.Council still must approve the decision at their next council meeting March 9

 

[Chuck]

Typical NIMBY story, no news here. It could be anywhere.

But having grown up in that part of town, I believe that the real issue is that although Thornhill's population density is all but equal to North York, it is only North York that is serviced by frequent local transit. As a result, Thornhill's high density causes a high density of cars rather than a high density of transit users. The residents are right - there is a problem here.

Rather than wasting hundreds of thousands of dollars on dead end bus routes to Stouffville and Georgina, which could arguably function just as well with no transit at all except for GO, YRT should instead be spending this money on improving bus frequencies in this part of the region. There is a lot of latent transit demand in Thornhill, but nothing will materialize until YRT takes the first step to improve frequencies.

The problems will get worse. The growth in this part of town is far exceeding what the places to grow act requires. Langstaff is the only designated growth node in the area, however growth is already occuring at Yonge and Steeles, Thornhill Village, Promenade Mall, and in Beaver Creek. As big as Langstaff may be, it may only represent 25% of the actual population growth that Thornhill will experience. If infrastructure keeps pace, this area is poised to become the best part of York Region. If YRT fails to catch up, it will be hell!

 

[urbandreamer]

Good lord, this area is ugly! I was cruising around here the other day (via google streetview)--haven't driven around here in about a year--and noticed what a joke this Liberty Development Group is! The condos aren't urban at all, with huge parking lots, nasty planning, zero street presence. Everyone drives cars up here, especially if they can afford a condo.... The main issue is that the area needs more streets forming a proper grid, rather than useless suburban-style dead ends. I'd mandate hiring a good architect, and build another 100,000 condo and apartment units around this 'hood, keeping aside some land for N/S/E/W streets--like you'd find downtown. There's a huge freaking park right on Bathurst here--what the heck are the locals complaining about?

 

[savevp]

Not at all.

I live here and I must say that the new condos add incredible retail (Disera Drive- Google it) and improvements to roads and malls. What was there before was a huge field so this is a great improvement.

To those who say that these condos are too suburban, you have to realize that this is the suburbs. And they do not have huge parking lots considering. The area looks pretty urban with the park on Beverly Glen and of course Disera Drive.

Admittedely it is not Downtown but it is still not overdeveloped.

My two cents.

 

[Chinese Jamaican Bloke]

this is more better than creating more urban sprawl destroying farms and greenspaces in the middle of nowhere like king township

 

[urbandreamer]

^lol, that is exactly what they did here! I remember the original landowner's farm here...as late as early 1990's! I know another farmer that regrets selling in the mid-nineties--they only got $35 million for their land then, whereas today it would be worth at least triple that.

 

[kettal]

The concerns about crime, pollution, pet waste, etc are laughable.

However, the traffic concern is real. YRT needs to start doing frequent service on major routes that don't end at 7 PM on Saturdays. If they don't, then they deserve to choke on the congestion.

 

[lead82]

Bathurst and Centre is choking on it's own congestion. The area councillors are morons who simply pander to the small-minded interest groups. The road grid is terrible, and most of the traffic problems have to do with the over-abundance of traffic lights and the lack of a proper arterial E-W road between Steeles and Hwy7. Clark could be a good road but it has 14 traffic lights over a 5km distance (all of which are poorly synchronized, causing slow movement of cars). Centre street needs to be widened to 4 lanes all the way up to Yonge and they need to connect it somehow to John Street east of Bayview to finish the arterial road network.

The new condos add density but it's just suburban sprawl. I know friends who live in the area and nobody walks around anywhere. I know people who live in the North Disera buildings and they wont even to Promenade mall, it's too 'far'! They drive to the mall, and they drive to the No Frills. They may walk to Walmart, but that's about it.

I say this is an opportunity wasted. They could have built a nice urban centre here with mixed retail and condos on top and maybe even an office building or two.

I also find it amusing that people in Thornhill are complaining about lack of parks. There aren't any good parks in Thornhill anyways, just small patches of grass or childrens playgrounds. That new park built by Liberty group on Bathurst just north of Centre is a joke. It's a green lawn, not a 4 seasons park as advertised in their condos sales brochures.

The big problem is traffic, and its about to get a lot worse with the added density. They should do a survey of who takes transit here. I'd bet it's mostly students. Even with increased frequencies, YRT can't compete with the car here. The destinations of people who work here are most likely not on transit lines or require too many transfers to get from one part of York Region to another. Again, it goes back to a poor road network in southern York region.

 

[jaycola]

There aren't any good parks in Thornhill anyways, just small patches of grass or childrens playgrounds.

Actually there are a couple very good parks in Thornhill. Yorkhill District Park, which shares land with both the public and Catholic schools as well as the Garnet A Williams Community Centre is a great park.
There are tennis courts, basketball courts, baseball diamonds, an outdoor skating rink that doubles for street hockey.

http://maps.google.ca/maps?oe=UTF-8...1905,-79.441023&spn=0.003717,0.01369&t=h&z=17

Winding Lane Park, Gallanough and Marita Paine parks are all decent parks as well.

 

[Transportfan]

The road grid is terrible, and most of the traffic problems have to do with the over-abundance of traffic lights and the lack of a proper arterial E-W road between Steeles and Hwy7.

The reason for that is because few people thought in the 60s that York would become the major northward extension of Toronto that it became, and thus nobody planned for two major arterials north of Steeles. That would have required connecting and widening Centre and John and minor destruction of some areas of old Thornhill (but back then nobody would have cared much), and making Langstaff continuous across the Humber and keeping it connected to Hwy. 7 east of Dufferin and not building the 7 link between Keele and Dufferin.

 

[BMO]

I think alot of the reason why YRT doesn't increase service in Thornhill is because the TTC service along steeles is so good, that it really wouldn't be cost effective for YRT to compete, because most people taking YRT are usually going to Finch, and nobody will take YRT over TTC especially when their commute will cost 3.25 more each time. For people going to other places in York Region, YRT sees itself as a good enough alternative to the car for those trips, and wasting money on this may take away money from other more crucial routes.

 

[Chuck]

I think alot of the reason why YRT doesn't increase service in Thornhill is because the TTC service along steeles is so good, that it really wouldn't be cost effective for YRT to compete...

Thornhill is situated between Steeles and Highway 7, which is exactly equal to the distance between Queen and St. Clair. All else being equal, this comment would be equivalent to the TTC limiting service improvements on Bloor and St. Clair due to the fact that apparently, the 501 streetcar is close enough to draw people away. Thornhill is 4 km wide. The Steeles bus may as well not exist for 90% of the people.

 

[Junction416]

Bathurst and Centre is choking on it's own congestion. The area councillors are morons who simply pander to the small-minded interest groups. The road grid is terrible, and most of the traffic problems have to do with the over-abundance of traffic lights and the lack of a proper arterial E-W road between Steeles and Hwy7. Clark could be a good road but it has 14 traffic lights over a 5km distance (all of which are poorly synchronized, causing slow movement of cars). Centre street needs to be widened to 4 lanes all the way up to Yonge and they need to connect it somehow to John Street east of Bayview to finish the arterial road network.

You do know that building and widening roads a does not reduce or improve traffic? Most of the traffic problems have to do with the over-abundance of cars and the failure to coordinate transportation and land uses policy. If you want to reduce traffic introduce tolls on highways and eliminate free parking. People will walk to Promenade Mall if the alternative is paying even as a little as $2.

http://www.amazon.com/High-Cost-Free-Parking/dp/1884829988

 

[BMO]

Thornhill is situated between Steeles and Highway 7, which is exactly equal to the distance between Queen and St. Clair. All else being equal, this comment would be equivalent to the TTC limiting service improvements on Bloor and St. Clair due to the fact that apparently, the 501 streetcar is close enough to draw people away. Thornhill is 4 km wide. The Steeles bus may as well not exist for 90% of the people.

yes you are right about the size, but what I was trying to explain was that a lot of the area's density is along steeles and between steeles and centre/john, don't even say that it is dense around highway 7 (granted some low density residential does reside between royal orchard and longbridge distance wise), unless hydro-wires and deceased people are counted in the density as well. That combined with the fact that most of the people in the area live between centre/john and steeles that area would be comparable to the distance of Queen to Bloor, and if half of that area is close enough to walk to a TTC bus (and I know many people who walk from wellesly to Queen for work each day), well then YRT is definitely going to have trouble competing with both a lower fare, and more frequent service offered by the TTC. Now i'm sure if there was a subway along centre/john st, as is comparable to Bloor street in the given area (queen - st.clair) then that would be a different story, but as it is the closest thing to comaprable to such service as any streetcar downtown or subway line would be viva purple that goes from centre north to hwy 7 then towards yonge, which would obviously benefit travelers going north, but going south the line with the best service is steeles. after walking 10-20 minutes south. Now I know you're probably saying well they could improve service and then the 20 min walk + 10 min bus ride to finch would be cut down substantially taking YRT. Yes this is 100% true, I cannot speak for everyone in the area, but if the double fare is going to cost me $6.25 each time compared to $3, over time it adds up, and people would opt for a little inconvenience of walking to TTC over frequent, but expensive YRT service.

 

[Disparishun]

yes you are right about the size, but what I was trying to explain was that a lot of the area's density is along steeles and between steeles and centre/john, don't even say that it is dense around highway 7 (granted some low density residential does reside between royal orchard and longbridge distance wise), unless hydro-wires and deceased people are counted in the density as well.

That sounds right to me. I very rarely take YRT. Instead I get a lift to Steeles or Finch or, if necessary, park at a plaza or pay for parking somewhere near the subway. It's not worth an extra $3.25 to ride the kilometre to Steeles ($6.50 round trip), and parking is between $8 and zero a day anyway.