Ontario Northland/Northern Ontario Transportation

[Admiral Beez]

Apologies on restarting an otherwise dead thread, but is there any chance that the recent changes in government can give Ontario Northland a boost to restart rail service from Toronto to their southern link at Cochrane?

 

[crs1026]

Apologies on restarting an otherwise dead thread, but is there any chance that the recent changes in government can give Ontario Northland a boost to restart rail service from Toronto to their southern link at Cochrane?

http://www.nugget.ca/2015/12/14/ontario-northland-employees-ratify-deal

Not likely. The government is pretty firm in trying to "rationalise" Ontario Northland. Since the passenger train stopped, track maintenance has also been cut to the bone. They run pretty slow up there these days.

- Paul

 

[smallspy]

http://www.nugget.ca/2015/12/14/ontario-northland-employees-ratify-deal

Not likely. The government is pretty firm in trying to "rationalise" Ontario Northland. Since the passenger train stopped, track maintenance has also been cut to the bone. They run pretty slow up there these days.

- Paul

I doubt that anything up there has been "cut to the bone". Ontario Northland is such a poorly-run organization that their idea of "cutting to the bone" is probably doing 4 hours of work instead of 3. They still run the railroad as if it was 1948.

That said, they do still own all of the passenger equipment....

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[crs1026]

I doubt that anything up there has been "cut to the bone". Ontario Northland is such a poorly-run organization that their idea of "cutting to the bone" is probably doing 4 hours of work instead of 3. They still run the railroad as if it was 1948.

My understanding is they are down to a skeleton MOW crew, and there are new slow orders on the mainline that would have to be corrected to reinstate passenger service. But, yeah, letting the track go to crap just means that the same crew makes the same money for a ten hour day instead of a six hour day. If you look at the Sunshine List for ONR, it's mostly RTE's earning the big bucks....not exactly draconian change in Operations. More like letting things bleed so things get so bad that a selloff can't be opposed. The average employee is pretty bitter, but is anyone willing to make the necessary changes?

- Paul

 

[smallspy]

My understanding is they are down to a skeleton MOW crew, and there are new slow orders on the mainline that would have to be corrected to reinstate passenger service. But, yeah, letting the track go to crap just means that the same crew makes the same money for a ten hour day instead of a six hour day. If you look at the Sunshine List for ONR, it's mostly RTE's earning the big bucks....not exactly draconian change in Operations. More like letting things bleed so things get so bad that a selloff can't be opposed. The average employee is pretty bitter, but is anyone willing to make the necessary changes?

- Paul

The right-of-way was so poorly constructed that the only time that they don't have slow orders is during the winter, when everything freezes up. And considering how warm the winter has been so far - well, suffice to say that there's no surprise there. By February, things will be back to normal, insofar as anything on the ONR can be considered "normal".

And I'm not saying that Joe Blow on the MOW crew is out there making megabucks. The issue is that there were far too many Joe Blows for an operation the size of ONR. There is no reason why it took three crews to get the Northlander down from Cochrane to Toronto - except for ONR's archaic operating rules and agreements. Why are they still running stick rail on a mainline in 2015? All these little things add up and cause a huge amount of bloat in an organization. Sure, their rail rebuild facility was a great thing to have, but when they lose money on contracts - as they did for the GO Transit contract, and likely did for the AMT one - than shouldn't we as taxpayers not start asking questions of why our money is being spent like this?

The fact of the matter was that ONR was given 10 years to clean up its act - and did almost-but-not-quite-completely nothing in that time. As much fun as it is for me as a railfan to enjoy ONR and my time aboard its trains, it's abhorrent to me as a taxpayer to keep shelling out for an entity that doesn't seem to give a shit about taking anything seriously.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[gweed123]

Personally, if passenger service is to resume, I'd like to see it run by GO instead of ONR. It would be far easier for GO to subsidize the service, which would make up a relatively small component of the overall GO budget. Use a few of the old locomotives (the ones that were only capable of pulling 10 car trains), and older rolling stock. If they can rebuild the corridor between Barrie and Orillia (I think that's the section that was removed), it can be intertwined with the GO service to Barrie.

 

[ShonTron]

Personally, if passenger service is to resume, I'd like to see it run by GO instead of ONR. It would be far easier for GO to subsidize the service, which would make up a relatively small component of the overall GO budget. Use a few of the old locomotives (the ones that were only capable of pulling 10 car trains), and older rolling stock. If they can rebuild the corridor between Barrie and Orillia (I think that's the section that was removed), it can be intertwined with the GO service to Barrie.

I lament the tearing up of the Newmarket Subdivision between Allandale and Longford. But CN didn't want to maintain the swing bridge at Orillia any longer, there were no freight customers left south of Longford, the connecting line to Midland was already abandoned, and the passenger service north of Toronto cutback after Mulroney's 1989-1990 cuts. For CN, it was a logical decision to rip it out and send all trains via the Bala Sub. It hurt passenger service (Newmarket, Barrie, and Orillia would have been useful stops for the Northlander and the Canadian), though at least GO is once again serving Allandale, and more train service is coming.

In Downtown Barrie, the road network was re-aligned and new developments make it hard to re-lay track. Even the rail trail (a very good rail trail, by the way) is interrupted by houses constructed along the right-of-way. Casino Rama built part of its expansion upon the ROW as well. It's dead.

 

[BMO]

Personally, if passenger service is to resume, I'd like to see it run by GO instead of ONR. It would be far easier for GO to subsidize the service, which would make up a relatively small component of the overall GO budget. Use a few of the old locomotives (the ones that were only capable of pulling 10 car trains), and older rolling stock. If they can rebuild the corridor between Barrie and Orillia (I think that's the section that was removed), it can be intertwined with the GO service to Barrie.

What rail corridor did these trains run on? The Barrie line? Sorry for my ignorance I have no clue on which subdivisions, etc any of the train movements outside of GO occur on

 

[gweed123]

I lament the tearing up of the Newmarket Subdivision between Allandale and Longford. But CN didn't want to maintain the swing bridge at Orillia any longer, there were no freight customers left south of Longford, the connecting line to Midland was already abandoned, and the passenger service north of Toronto cutback after Mulroney's 1989-1990 cuts. For CN, it was a logical decision to rip it out and send all trains via the Bala Sub. It hurt passenger service (Newmarket, Barrie, and Orillia would have been useful stops for the Northlander and the Canadian), though at least GO is once again serving Allandale, and more train service is coming.

In Downtown Barrie, the road network was re-aligned and new developments make it hard to re-lay track. Even the rail trail (a very good rail trail, by the way) is interrupted by houses constructed along the right-of-way. Casino Rama built part of its expansion upon the ROW as well. It's dead.

That's a bummer. I suppose it could function as an extension of the Richmond Hill GO line then, but RH isn't scheduled to see nearly the kind of improvements that Barrie is, hence why I mentioned that one initially.

What rail corridor did these trains run on? The Barrie line? Sorry for my ignorance I have no clue on which subdivisions, etc any of the train movements outside of GO occur on

They used to run on the Barrie line (don't know the exact sub name, I'm in the same boat as you on that one), but Via trains like the Canadian now use the Bala Sub (the Richmond Hill line).

 

[ShonTron]

The Northland, I believe, took the Bala Sub (Richmond Hill Line), even when the Newmarket Sub (GO Barrie Line) was still intact between Barrie and Washago. The Canadian (and the pre-1990 Northland train to North Bay/Timmins) took the Newmarket.

 

[dowlingm]

For me the logical operator of Toronto-North Bay(-Cochrane) service is VIA under contract to Ontario. They have medium distance equipment and a functioning sales operation/website, and might consider shocking ideas like trying to get Toronto people to travel north rather than solely a way for northerners to come south. Probably easier to get Northern Development to cooperate with the Feds/VIA than with MTO/Metrolinx anyway. If someone wants to try, integrating GO and ONTC services south of Barrie would be a place to start.

I thought ONR's passenger stock or at least some of it was near end of useful life?

 

[MisterF]

It really is a shame that the government didn't (and still doesn't) have a policy to buy up rail lines that freight companies abandon to preserve them for possible future passenger service. Extending service to Orillia would have been a no brainer.

 

[crs1026]

It really is a shame that the government didn't (and still doesn't) have a policy to buy up rail lines that freight companies abandon to preserve them for possible future passenger service. Extending service to Orillia would have been a no brainer.

They do, now - sort of. This particular abandonment was earlier in the game, and it's a case of "the one that got away". We've learned better, but there aren't many surplus lines left to apply our learning to.

The Northlander had two strikes against it - one being the long haul up to North Bay on CN, which didn't need passenger quality track north of Washago, and didn't want passenger trains on its line at all south of there. The second strike being ONR itself. There was definitely substantial ridership, just as there likely would be for a Toronto-Sudbury-Sault St Marie train if one had been maintained. The encroachment on the freight railways, however, makes these trains non starters.

- Paul

 

[dowlingm]

I think ONR should have been operating services like North Bay-Sudbury-Sault but given the recrimination when a Sudbury minister took the axe to "North Bay's ONTC" it doesn't seem like one part of the north likes to have much to do with the other! ONTC's buses go up 11 and up 400 and don't meet again until almost Kapuskasing.

 

[Admiral Beez]

There was definitely substantial ridership, just as there likely would be for a Toronto-Sudbury-Sault St Marie train if one had been maintained. The encroachment on the freight railways, however, makes these trains non starters.

I have to think that cheap airfares from Toronto also make rail travel northward less feasible. I just checked Porter and for $204 I can fly in February direct Toronto to Timmins return. Meanwhile, Ontario Northland Bus Toronto to Timmins return is $345. Why take the bus when the flight is cheaper?