Mining and forestry. They are cyclical. Mining has returned but a lot of people left in the late 80s and 90s. And the kids leave. Oh, and I left. (Because I could see the writing on the wall)
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Ontario Northland/Northern Ontario Transportation
- Thread starter CDL.TO
- Start date
lenaitch
Senior Member
What PinkLucy said. While the cities are more diversified, their industries are still largely resource based in addition to government and post secondary. Smaller communities are definitely resource or, to a lesser degree in some areas, agricultural based. The number of pulp mills has been devastated by changes in the market. While the forest is obviously a renewable resource and sawmills are still viable, the market is driven by the economy and things like the softwood lumber dispute. Mineral extraction is, by its very nature, boom and bust; the day a mine opens its shut-down clock starts and are heavily driven by commodity values and their stability. Some areas, like Sudbury and Red Lake have mineral bodies that allow them to operate for decades, but they still ebb and flow. There is a lot of exploration going on but even if a mine gets developed, development is most often done by contract companies who come, do their thing and leave. This can still help the local economy - I've wheeled into to some towns and been unable to get a motel room. Modern mining operations are less labour intensive than before.
Modern mining also requires a different skill set. You used to be able to go underground at 16. Not now. The money is good and flows freely in the good times.
micheal_can
Senior Member
... the chidlren. They moved away, got educated and got into a field that is not in those cities. For example, I lived in North Bay, I grew up, moved away and now live in Sudbury. My field is Power Engineering. There are no jobs in North Bay. So, I likely won't ever move back.
Northern Light
Superstar
There's a chicken-egg problem in many northern communities. In order to diversify the job base and the educational base you need a certain critical mass population wise.
But you have difficulty attracting that base w/o the diversified employment and educational opportunity.
Still, you can see where T-Bay in particular, and Sudbury to a lesser degree are on the cusp of having that kind of weight.
The Northern Ontario School of Medicine, faculties of architecture and law have begun to retain more young people through their education and attract more from the
south who might find it difficult gaining admission in high-demand schools or who prefer a smaller-school experience.
Both communities still have challenges, T-Bay w/racism and under performing downtowns, and Sudbury more the latter.
For other small Northern Communities the challenge it to make a a compelling case for kind of educational, healthcare and quality of life investments that will help draw.
Kenora is finally in line for a new hospital (the current one lacks an MRI meaning none between T-Bay and Winnipeg); that rebuild will really help that community in terms of both quality of life but also good jobs in healthcare.
One reform needed up north is municipal government. Many are too small to effectively mobilize their resources either for economic development or key infrastructure/services.
That may mean more amalgamations, but it definitely means bringing Regional Municipalities to the north.
There's also a real need to get our resource extraction on a more sustainable and thoughtful basis.
The mentality is often "as much as possible, as soon as possible" in both energy and mining.
The result is to spend more $$ building larger infrastructure up front, shorten the life of the asset because you're depleting it more quickly and lower the market price for the commodity by flooding the market.
One needs a longer vision that imagines extracting 1/2 as much per year, lower up front costs and doubling the lifespan.
In the case of forestry there's a twin-need to make sure we have impeccable green credentials (as we can't compete w/some of the cheap lumber from Asia otherwise) and building up the value-added chain.
Ontario should be heavier into making furniture and flooring and less into wood pulp.
But you have difficulty attracting that base w/o the diversified employment and educational opportunity.
Still, you can see where T-Bay in particular, and Sudbury to a lesser degree are on the cusp of having that kind of weight.
The Northern Ontario School of Medicine, faculties of architecture and law have begun to retain more young people through their education and attract more from the
south who might find it difficult gaining admission in high-demand schools or who prefer a smaller-school experience.
Both communities still have challenges, T-Bay w/racism and under performing downtowns, and Sudbury more the latter.
For other small Northern Communities the challenge it to make a a compelling case for kind of educational, healthcare and quality of life investments that will help draw.
Kenora is finally in line for a new hospital (the current one lacks an MRI meaning none between T-Bay and Winnipeg); that rebuild will really help that community in terms of both quality of life but also good jobs in healthcare.
One reform needed up north is municipal government. Many are too small to effectively mobilize their resources either for economic development or key infrastructure/services.
That may mean more amalgamations, but it definitely means bringing Regional Municipalities to the north.
There's also a real need to get our resource extraction on a more sustainable and thoughtful basis.
The mentality is often "as much as possible, as soon as possible" in both energy and mining.
The result is to spend more $$ building larger infrastructure up front, shorten the life of the asset because you're depleting it more quickly and lower the market price for the commodity by flooding the market.
One needs a longer vision that imagines extracting 1/2 as much per year, lower up front costs and doubling the lifespan.
In the case of forestry there's a twin-need to make sure we have impeccable green credentials (as we can't compete w/some of the cheap lumber from Asia otherwise) and building up the value-added chain.
Ontario should be heavier into making furniture and flooring and less into wood pulp.
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Allandale25
Senior Member
Does anyone have a copy of the Northlander schedule before it was cancelled in 2012? Also, I think there has been some discussion/speculation on what a better schedule would look like. I think I even remember reading articles back in 2012 where employees had suggestions on what a better schedule could have been. Thanks in advance for any information.
lenaitch
Senior Member
I did a lot of searching but could not come up with one. Sorry. Not knowing a darn thing about train and crew scheduling or potential ridership dempgraphics, it would seem to make sense to run n/b late afternoon/early evening Friday to serve cottage country then layover in North Bay; continue n/b to Cochrane Saturday; s/b from Cochrane Sunday which would run it through Muskoka Sunday afternoon; then alternate n/b-s/b through the week. I don't know if ridership would warrant everyday northbound and southbound service, at least in the beginning.
I do recall that one of the reasons people I know stopped using it / reduced their usage, was because of the schedule. 30 years ago, the train left Toronto at night -- we would arrive home early morning after a pleasant trip in the sleeper car. That was back when it was a daily train and well used. I can't remember how it was scheduled in its later years -- because I never took it any longer as it wasn't as convenient/comfortable.
ShonTron
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Until the Mulroney cuts, there were two trains a day. One was a ONR/VIA sleeper train, called the Northland, to Cochrane and on to Kapuskasing, the other, the ONR Northlander, a day train to Timmins. After the cuts, the track in Downtown Timmins was ripped up. North Bay was also served by the Montreal-Sudbury section of the VIA Canadian, and there was service in Cochrane to Northern Quebec.
In the 1990s, I remember the Northlander (the train that survived) leaving in the late afternoon from Toronto - you'd get into North Bay before midnight, but at really lousy times for points north, turning around at Cochrane for a very early morning departure. But it only required a single revenue trainset. The schedule was changed for a morning departures from Cochrane and from Union Station.
Edited - it was very confusing that the two trains were called "Northland" and "Northlander." I mixed up the sleeper and the day train.
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Oh yes, I had forgotten that. We always used the sleeper except for once in 1988 when we took the day train. After the sleeper was cancelled, one trip on the new and definitely not improved train was enough for me. It did stimulate a bit of local economy though as a few operators across NE Ontario started limousine services to/from Toronto which had better times and were more convenient than the train.
micheal_can
Senior Member
I never understood why it would not run on Sunday. Seriously, there are tons of people who cottage or camp that would use it to go home to Toronto.
dowlingm
Senior Member
My recollection is that Northlander left Toronto in the morning around 9.30 when it was cancelled. Not the best time to pull up and board a long distance train these days. I would think Metrolinx would rather a different timing for any reinstated train for platform occupancy reasons.
Allandale25
Senior Member
It was pointed out to me that the 2012 schedule is here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northlander
lenaitch
Senior Member
Well there ya go. Seems I looked everywhere but.
Allandale25
Senior Member
^ Same