Taxis and ride-sharing in Toronto

[diminutive]

So we should let Uber operate a transit service illegally, which will make the TTC even worse off, because the TTC sucks? I agree that the TTC sucks, but this doesn't look like a very good long-term option to me.

Well, we don't know if UberHop is illegal. It doesn't do much to just assume-away the most complicated part of the issue.

For instance...
"Municipal lawyer Ron Kanter expects the case could potentially wind up in the courts, leaving it up to a judge to determine whether Uber is violating the TTC’s protected monopoly, as set out in the City of Toronto Act.

“It is unclear and uncertain at this time,” said Kanter. “It could be argued either way.”"

 

[LNahid2000]

I think there was a report saying that Uber's impact on TTC ridership would be negligible. If they do take ridership away, I don't see how it would make the TTC worse.

You don't understand how more private vehicles on the same roads that TTC surface routes use would made the TTC worse? Seems pretty obvious to me.

 

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

OK, Uber has officially joined the mainstream and the taxi / TTC monopolies are toast:

http://www.rbc.com/newsroom/news/2015/20151215-rbc-uber.html

If the biggest bank in Canada is partnering with these guys, the taxis are in for a world of hurt. No way RBC does this without some kind of line of sight that Uber will be welcomed into the community.

 

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

You don't understand how more private vehicles on the same roads that TTC surface routes use would made the TTC worse? Seems pretty obvious to me.

Wait, what? Are you assuming that 100% of Uber riders would otherwise be on TTC, instead of trading their own car drive for an Uberhop? That's not clear to me at all.

 

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

Uber will siphon riders from profitable TTC routes because the service sucks not because paying a premium is the preferred choice for riders. I hate having to use Uber because the TTC lets me down but at least they get me to work on time.

Given today's subway problems, this might not be the day for it, but really, TTC service doesn't suck. It's not all it should be, but the reason it has issues is due to an overburdened system, and systems don't get overburdened (i.e. have too many customers) due to their 'suckiness'. It's due to being too popular, not crappy.

How often do you ditch TTC for Uber? Just during rush hour, or has the Uber experience being so good price/value wise that you are giving up on TTC altogether?

I'm genuinely curious -- trying to assess the Uber impact in Toronto.

 

[dowlingm]

Getting Bob Kinnear as your enemy is a PR win, let's face it.

The Uberhop routes, at least a couple of them, seem to be lining up with the new 514 service. It will be interesting to see what happens when these services load/unload in the city centre.

The TTC could suck less. The answer is for Council to raise the money to fund below the line / nice to have projects and to implement things like King Street changes to impede through traffic. Instead it gets the minimum budget, Pam McConnell agrees to more parking on King East, King West is closed for entertainment events like the politically well connected TIFF, the 505 crawls through the city centre because when the pedestrian scramble was implemented there was no extra time given to east-west traffic.

Here is an excerpt from the City of Toronto Act. Exception 3h would seem to capture the Porter shuttle. Exception 3f was what I think Line Six were hanging their hat on, and presumably Uber too.

Exclusive authority of TTC

395. (1) No person other than the TTC shall establish, operate or maintain a local passenger transportation system within the City until the TTC is dissolved or the control and management over the local passenger transportation system is removed from the TTC. 2006, c. 11, Sched. A, s. 395 (1).

Offence

(2) A person who contravenes subsection (1) is guilty of an offence. 2006, c. 11, Sched. A, s. 395 (2).

Exceptions

(3) Subsection (1) does not apply in respect of,

(a) rickshaws;

(b) pedicabs;

(c) railway companies incorporated under federal or provincial statutes;

(d) taxicabs;

(e) vehicles used for providing sightseeing tours;

(f) vehicles exclusively chartered to transport a group of persons for a specified trip within the City, for a group fee;

(g) buses owned and operated by or operated under a contract with a school board or private school;

(h) buses owned and operated by a corporation or organization solely for its own purposes, without charging a fee for transportation;

(i) ferries to the Toronto Islands;

(j) public buses on the Toronto Islands.

(k) Repealed: 2011, c. 9, Sched. 41, s. 2.​

 

[LNahid2000]

Wait, what? Are you assuming that 100% of Uber riders would otherwise be on TTC, instead of trading their own car drive for an Uberhop? That's not clear to me at all.

I never said that. How many people do you really think are driving from Liberty Village/Cityplace/Distillery/Fort York to the Financial District? Most of these commuters are using the TTC and its clear UberHop is going for that market.

 

[rbt]

I never said that. How many people do you really think are driving from Liberty Village/Cityplace/Distillery/Fort York to the Financial District? Most of these commuters are using the TTC and its clear UberHop is going for that market.

The end-game of UberHop (probably unintentionally) is a San Fran valley model where high-salary staff have a transit vehicle that runs every 10 minutes (funded by the local companies) and normal people have a heavily subsidized city bus that runs every hour. The city refuses to increase bus service due to low ridership. They can't kill it because ridership isn't zero. It's not a good model for most efficient use of city resources.

Of course, TTC in those areas does kinda suck though I'm not sure it's actually the TTCs fault the capital to fix it has never been approved and residents poo-poo'd the interesting/cheap proposals (King ROW for example).

 

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

I never said that. How many people do you really think are driving from Liberty Village/Cityplace/Distillery/Fort York to the Financial District? Most of these commuters are using the TTC and its clear UberHop is going for that market.

You may not have said that, but you implied it.

I don't know how many people drive from those districts to the city centre, but since the traffic is pretty harsh during rush hour on King, they must be coming from somewhere, right?

Doesn't really matter -- except, I guess, the Liberty Village / King Street West route -- because the rest of the routes won't take King or Queen or QQ, and so won't impede the streetcars. (Cityplace should be taking Bremner, Distillery along Wellington/Front, Fort York Bremner as well.)

 

[diminutive]

The end-game of UberHop (probably unintentionally) is a San Fran valley model where high-salary staff have a transit vehicle that runs every 10 minutes (funded by the local companies) and normal people have a heavily subsidized city bus that runs every hour. The city refuses to increase bus service due to low ridership. They can't kill it because ridership isn't zero. It's not a good model for most efficient use of city resources.

???

That's not how things work in San Francisco at all. The private shuttles mostly service suburban office campuses that probably would have had a <5% transit modal share without the buses. They're not poaching people from municipal services, or whatever poaching does occur is negligible.

 

[LNahid2000]

Further proof that they're going after TTC riders:

This morning Uber employees offered free coffee and even approached passengers as they stood at a TTC bus stop. Dozens of passengers took them up on the offer, piling in to UberHop's fleet of SUVs and minivans.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/uberhop-1.3365621

 

[PinkLucy]

Sure they took them up on the offer -- free ride and free coffee. But when it costs them $5/ride, will they still be willing?

 

[Filip]

Some people do crazy things to avoid the TTC...

I pay double fare to take an express TTC bus JUST so I don't have to deal with the 501. Ever.

I would gladly pay $5 to avoid the TTC altogether. They just suck, both in speed and reliability.

 

[kEiThZ]

Personally, I don't care for the TTC's monopoly. It's BS that instead of focusing on the best experience for the customer, we have to resort to regulating out the TTC's competition in a handful of areas where transit doesn't work well.

And it's a regulatory framework that is built on thin ice. Is the TTC going to go after carpools from the area where everybody is pitching in gas money?

 

[Amare]

I never said that. How many people do you really think are driving from Liberty Village/Cityplace/Distillery/Fort York to the Financial District? Most of these commuters are using the TTC and its clear UberHop is going for that market.

You would be surprised at how many lazy people there are who drive to work from places like City Place (and areas closer to the downtown core) to the Financial district.

But in any case, I dont sympathize with the TTC one bit on this. Since they prove time and time again that they have trouble providing reliable and frequent service in the city, they should let someone else give them a helping hand. I could care less about their "monopoly legislation" since the province isnt really interested in increasing funding for the TTC so it is basically the same old status quo in terms of what service the TTC can offer.