Toronto Rogers Centre Renovations | ?m | ?s | Toronto Blue Jays | Populous

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Another thought just came to mind - the land SkyDome sits on belong to the Feds, I believe - it was a 99 year lease for the purposes of hosting a stadium. City building issues aside, what's the return for the government for allowing a change in land use beyond what's currently there (and the fairness aspect - especially if it is not an open development process)?

AoD

 

[Northern Light]

Another thought just came to mind - the land SkyDome sits on belong to the Feds, I believe - it was a 99 year lease for the purposes of hosting a stadium. City building issues aside, what's the return for the government for allowing a change in land use beyond what's currently there (and the fairness aspect - especially if it is not an open development process)?

AoD

Lease runs to 2088.

So another 68 years.

Not sure on the financial terms.

I'd be inclined to assume they are quite generous to Rogers (but again not sure).

If the can of worms were re-opened, one can be sure the market-value of the land would support a substantial increase in payments.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Lease runs to 2088.

So another 68 years.

Not sure on the financial terms.

I think it is a pretty fair question to ask - especially since it is reasonable to assume the private sector partner will be expecting some return from this scheme above and beyond any contribution it provides to rebuilding the stadium. What's there for the public owner of the site now that the land will be used for purposed not originally envisioned? Is the public getting a fair deal from what is basically a real estate play (once you strip away the new stadium narrative).

AoD

 

[Northern Light]

I think it is a pretty fair question to ask - especially since it is reasonable to assume the private sector partner will be expecting some return from this scheme above and beyond any contribution it provides to rebuilding the stadium. What's there for the public owner of the site now that the land will be used for purposed not originally envisioned?

AoD

I completely agree.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Lease runs to 2088.

So another 68 years.

Not sure on the financial terms.

I'd be inclined to assume they are quite generous to Rogers (but again not sure).

If the can of worms were re-opened, one can be sure the market-value of the land would support a substantial increase in payments.

Found this from an old article in the Globe on the sale to Rogers:

Commercial real-estate experts say it's difficult to place a value on the SkyDome, in part because it sits on land leased from both Canada Lands Co. Ltd., a Crown corporation, and the City of Toronto for about $900,000 a year through 2088. The terms of the lease require the land to be used as a stadium along with the related amenities.

"This is a very use-specific piece of real estate," said Jamie Ziegel, the vice-president and manager of investment and financial services for Royal LePage Commercial Inc. "You can argue it isn't a great price, but who else would buy it? You can't develop it. It is going to be a stadium."

Sold . . .

. . . for the bargain-basement price of $25-million, Toronto's SkyDome, after it cost taxpayers $600-million 15 years ago

www.theglobeandmail.com

I have some fundamental unease about the public ending up with the short end of the stick again (they already did once with the original stadium).

AoD

 

[Northern Light]

Found this from an old article in the Globe on the sale to Rogers:

Sold . . .

. . . for the bargain-basement price of $25-million, Toronto's SkyDome, after it cost taxpayers $600-million 15 years ago

www.theglobeandmail.com

I have some fundamental unease about the public ending up with the short end of the stick again (they already did once with the original stadium).

AoD

That works out to $61.2M remaining on the current lease.

The current site on which the dome sits is ~ 5ha or 12.5 acres.

If you assumed the land had the same per .ha value as the site at Richmond and John just acquired by Tridel.............

Which was 59M for .43 acres.

That works out to 1.7B for 12.5 acres.................

Or a lease of just over 25.2M per year, for the next 68 years.

An increase of only 28x from the payment noted above.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

That works out to $61.2M remaining on the current lease.

The current site on which the dome sits is ~ 5ha or 12.5 acres.

If you assumed the land had the same per .ha value as the site at Richmond and John just acquired by Tridel.............

Which was 59M for .43 acres.

That works out to 1.7B for 12.5 acres.................

Or a lease of just over 25.2M per year, for the next 68 years.

An increase of only 28x from the payment noted above.

Yes, but that's only within the context of the lease with use as a stadium (nevermind inflationary losses in the lease rate); assuming the new stadium will take up maybe 50% of the original site, we are looking very crudely 1B+ in land value? Pretty much smack in the middle of the core. The question is - if CLC/City forgo the value-added from any redevelopment - the public will in essence be footing at least the partial rebuild cost of the stadium up to the land value.

AoD

 

[Admiral Beez]

Another thought just came to mind - the land SkyDome sits on belong to the Feds, I believe - it was a 99 year lease for the purposes of hosting a stadium. City building issues aside, what's the return for the government for allowing a change in land use beyond what's currently there (and the fairness aspect - especially if it is not an open development process)?

AoD

Hmm.... maybe Feds can sell it to pay into the pandemic financial plan.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

The new Raiders stadium in Vegas has grass field even though it is an indoor stadium. The field is on a huge track and is moved outside so it can grow and get sunlight.

Allegiant Stadium - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Something like this could be done. Vegas is too hot for an outdoor stadium like Toronto is too cold for one.

If a new stadium is built right like this, it could host more than baseball. Soccer, CFL and possibly even a NFL team could move here. Toronto is a much larger market than NFL cities like Buffalo, Cleveland or Cincinnati.

The NFL team would also get a national fanbase following like the Raptors and Blue Jays as Canada's only team in the league.

BMO field uses underground heating pipes and moveable grow lamps. This should work for the Blue Jays stadium as well.

 

[Richard White]

No matter what we need a roof. Nobody will pay 100 or more dollars for a rain delay, snow delay or attack by seagulls.

 

[Darwinkgo]

And that's really the rub. There's almost no way that public funds won't find their way into this fantasy, be it through tax breaks, direct funding, grants, or some other nonsense.

Like selling off federal land but the profit goes to stadium construction. Which is what Rogers proposes.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Like selling off federal land but the profit goes to stadium construction. Which is what Rogers proposes.

Which is basically asking the public to foot the bill for a new private stadium by parting with a public asset (i.e. land - either as an extended lease, or permanently as property divested) - when the old one was built using partial public funds and sold at a significant loss already. Now it is easy to see what Rogers gain from this process but I am not sure how the public comes out monetarily on top of this. Now you can argue there are secondary benefits to the public (increased tax base from the development, continued viability of the team - which could be an ephemeral business decision anyways, etc) but I am not sure if it compares favourably to the value of the land itself.

AoD

 

[Translude15]

I did some crude mock ups of what two popular, modern-retro style ballparks would look like if built on the SkyDome lands. I chose Camden Yards in Baltimore and PNC Park in Pittsburgh as both stadiums are smaller footprints that would best be suited to the limited land availability in Toronto. Both are also widely considered to be the gold standard of what an MLB ballpark should look like in terms of layout and design. Other newer parks take up too large an area with dimensions far larger than those listed below. As a disclaimer, I measured the entire lot lines of these stadiums, which includes sidewalks and other structures that surround the stadiums themselves. My estimate is that a new stadium on the existing Dome lands would be built south of Bremner and stretch north and east accordingly.

PNC Park dimensions:
Capacity: 38,747 (seated); 40,000+ (standing room)
Home plate (NW corner) to RF corner (end of Mazeroski Way meeting Three Rivers Trail): 207 m
Home plate (SW corner) to CF straightaway (Three Rivers Trail meets Roberto Clemente Bridge): 338 m
Home plate (SW corner) to LF corner (corner of Federal St and W General Robinson St): 277.55 m

Camden Yards dimensions:
Capacity: 45,971 (seated); 48,187+ (standing room)
Home plate (SW corner) to RF corner (B&O warehouse): 216 m
Home plate (SW corner) to CF straightaway (W Camden St): 348 m
Home plate (SW corner) to LF corner (Brooks Robinson statue): 280 m

SkyDome land dimensions (south of Bremner):
Home plate (SW corner) to RF corner (Pumping Station & Rees St): 218 m
Home plate (SW corner) to CF straightaway (northern steps at Robbie Rosenfield Park/CN Tower entrance): 322 m
Home plate (SW corner) to LF corner (corner of Blue Jays Way and Gate 14): 270 m

Here's what PNC Park looks like superimposed onto the SkyDome lands:

The dimensions of the structure certainly fit, especially on the southern portion of the lot.

Here's what Camden Yards looks like in the same area:

Similar to PNC, the dimensions certainly fit. It remains to be seen how any proposal would affect the pumping station at Lake Shore and Rees St. Would the station be moved underground or somewhere else entirely? Furthermore, Bremner Blvd in its current state would have to either be rerouted underground, which doesn't seem likely, north of the new stadium, which also doesn't seem likely, or disconnected in between the stadium. Perhaps Fort York Blvd gets extended east of Spadina and the new Bremner begins east of the new stadium. Additionally, any stadium proposals of this nature would likely include an extension of Blue Jays Way south, ending with a cul-de-sac at the SW corner of the stadium. Perhaps John St gets extended over the rail corridor and also ends in a cul-de-sac before the stadium's CF plaza begins.

Saying all that, any residential and commercial real estate developments are fairly limited in any such instances. PNC's dimensions leave about half the current stadium's footprint to build on. Camden's leaves you with barely a sliver. Any additional RE development would require utilizing the space overtop the railway. Whether Oxford's proposal moves forward remains to be seen but Brookfield's development of the Dome's lands would likely come right up to the property line with Oxford. Whatever new stadium Rogers and the Jays intend to build, it will also likely have to be more condensed than what PNC and Camden can offer.

 

[Kitsune]

Possibly they could cantilever some of the stands over lake shore? PNC size works well if you don't need the extra structures and they can figure out the roof situation. Also .. the CFL's BC Lions played in temporary stadium for a couple years while BC place was reno'ed - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empire_Field

 

[EddyMCD]

You can probably shave some space off the south side of the stadium. They would put it as close to the Lake Shore/Gardiner as possible. No need for sidewalks and plazas there. Also, two of the Cityplace condos access their parking garages off Van de Water (the west side of the parking lot south of Bremner). So that access would need to be maintained.

It also remains to be seen if adding a retractable roof increases the stadium footprint.