Toronto Rogers Centre Renovations | ?m | ?s | Toronto Blue Jays | Populous

ADRM said:
Rogers has demonstrated that when the team has a realistic chance at winning, they will fund payroll expansion. During the Jays' last competitive run a few years back, they had among the highest payrolls in baseball.
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I dont know when they demonstrated that? When they had delgado and doc and still wouldnt put more people around? When we had a good season and we let price walk... Hey maybe price didnt go on to do big things but it still showed us being cheap.
 
Richard White said:
Likely.

I can see certain people being fired at the same time however.


That's the thing. They look at it from an analytics standpoint. I know one of the business analytics people and it is safe to say they crunch numbers too much.

Rogers wont open the purse strings to get good players but at the same time their main priority is marketing.

They want someone who looks good in an ad that the fans like.. not people who can win.

As an aside the Yankees have paid the luxury tax almost yearly it's why they have such good players. With the exchange rate and high taxes most players don't want to play here.
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As per usual, there is much inaccuracy, vagueness and hearsay in your posts, Richard. If anything, wouldn't less fans be an even greater incentive to renovate and upgrade the stadium to you know, draw fans?

sixrings said:
The difference is that the yankees will always spend even when there isnt a realistic chance of winning... its why they went from being the bottom of the barrel a couple years ago to being a top dog again...If we would have spent the last 25 years spending money instead of trying to be cheap we would have competed. People would have looked at our franchise differently.. Both players and fans. Instead since we won we have played the woe is me that we are stuck in the red sox and yankees division card...
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The Yankees and Red Sox are what they are in the present day namely because of their relatively sustained successes over the last 2 decades. Key word here is sustained, not back to back ALCS appearances after a 22 year playoff drought. Sustained success maintains higher attendance which allows for marquee spending. In the case of the Yankees, in the entire history of the franchise, going back over 100 years, the franchise drew over 3 million fans (37,000 fans per game) for the first time in 1999 (!!!). They haven't drawn less than 3 million fans since then. There is a correlation there that many Jays fans should take note of. That said, most of their existing rosters have been devised using homegrown talent. The Red Sox developed Betts, Benitendi, Bogaerts and Bradley Jr. Chris Sale and Porcello were both trade acquisitions which were only made using homegrown prospects. That's why developing an elite farm system is so essential for contending.

sixrings said:
I dont know when they demonstrated that? When they had delgado and doc and still wouldnt put more people around? When we had a good season and we let price walk... Hey maybe price didnt go on to do big things but it still showed us being cheap.
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The Price situation was more the result of that core group of players being older and with a very limited competitive window. That team was the oldest in the majors at the time. Look at where the starters from the 2015 playoffs are currently. Some aren't even playing anymore and the rest are on the tail end of their careers. My main criticism of the current regime is they should've started the rebuild sooner, preferably in 2017.
 
sixrings said:
I dont know when they demonstrated that?
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As recently as two years ago, the Jays had the 5th-highest payroll in baseball (higher than teams in New York City; Los Angeles; Texas; and San Francisco, among 25 others).

They also spent above the league average in 2018; 2017; 2016; 2015; 2014; and 2013.

But, hey, facts!
 
I wouldn't fret too much about the bad crowds this week. The week after the home opener is never great. Factor in that it's a rebuilding year and the Leafs and Raptors are in playoff runs - bad crowds should be kind of expected, really. The team led the American League in attendance, what, two years ago? When they're good again it'll be fine. Even this year when the weather turns nice, it should pick up quite a bit.
 
sixrings said:
are there really $1 hot dogs? The fact that the jays cant figure out a way to sell tickets with condos all around them and a booming downtown is so sad... This is what happens when people think that the jays arent really attempting to win. Id always prefer them put the money on the field rather than a reno... but thats me.. If this was a world series team we wouldnt sell out but we would at least do 30k. The reason the yanjees are almost sell outs is because their history is that every year they will compete.... Im tired of blue jays management to cheap to spend.
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This used to be a baseball town. I think you’re right that they need to invest in the team but I wouldn’t disregard the potential of redesigning the stadium to attract exactly the locals in surrounding condos that you reference. Even watching an average team can be entertaining. Heck, people watch games at the local baseball diamond.

Knocking down the hotel and opening the stadium to the outside and decking over the rail corridor behind the SkyDome to create a park with a big screen playing for free would help kickstart a fan base out of residents in the neighbourhood. Going out to walk the dog in the park or setting down a blanket for a Summer picnic while watching the game on an outdoor big screen would be great. Those people just casually spending time in their neighbourhood would get a feeling of the game from the outside and entice them to go in and watch in the stands.

As it is now, the SkyDome is just a concrete bunker near your condo that you pass by on the way to somewhere else and have no desire whatsoever to hang around. It needs to be opened up.
 
Without derailing the topic off of the stadium, we should also consider many players simply don't want to play in Toronto. Partly that could be due to the turf the Jays play on. Players have often complained it's a hard surface to play on. Unfortunately, it doesn't look like we'll be seeing grass inside the stadium any time soon.

I'd love to see some images of whatever plans they might be cooking up. Actually, if anyone out there has a talent in that sort of thing, I'd love to see people's ideas.
 
T.E.C.II said:
Without derailing the topic off of the stadium, we should also consider many players simply don't want to play in Toronto. Partly that could be due to the turf the Jays play on. Players have often complained it's a hard surface to play on. Unfortunately, it doesn't look like we'll be seeing grass inside the stadium any time soon.

I'd love to see some images of whatever plans they might be cooking up. Actually, if anyone out there has a talent in that sort of thing, I'd love to see people's ideas.
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I think your comment relates to the stadium's future plans in multiple ways. For one, the turf has always been a bit of an issue vis a vis the rest of MLB (save Tampa Bay) playing on real grass. The dirt infield helps as does the newer turf which is much more like real grass than the original neon-green thin carpet was. Saying that, I think a lot of players avoiding Toronto in free agency has more to do with the facilities themselves than the city or turf. Look at Pillar's reaction to being traded. I'd say most players certainly love the city or at least developing a liking for it. The greater problem relates to the team's existing spring training facilities in Dunedin (which are undergoing a massive modernization reno) as well as what is available within the Dome itself. See former Yankees manager Joe Girardi's comments on the visitors weight room in 2014:

https://www.durhamregion.com/community-story/4816915-girardi-unimpressed-with-rogers-centre-gym/
"Has anyone seen the weight room? It's about as big as this area we're in right now, this little room," said Girardi, gesturing to the crowded visitors' dugout. "It doesn't have a SwimEx. It doesn't have all the modalities. I mean, I told you, I'm concerned about him. I am concerned about him.
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I know the Jays recently renovated and expanding the team's weight room facilities but I'd guess there's probably a lot more to be done to get the facilities on par with other ballparks. When other teams can offer newer, better facilities, that is certainly a much more valuable draw for free agents.

Moving the conversation along to the stadium itself and the fan experience, compare SkyDome to Scotiabank Arena or even BMO Field. There are no modern, luxury amenities or seating areas beyond the TD Clubhouse in the 200 level or the newly opened Ticketmaster Lounge above it. Let's compare the bare-bones SkyDome amenities to what exists in say, Yankee Stadium's Legends Suite:
  • Private entrance
  • Access to the bi-level Legends Suite Club, the Ketel One Lounge, located along the first-base line, and the Halstead Lounge, located along third-base line
  • All-inclusive food and nonalcoholic beverages at the Legends Suite Club
  • Fine dining at the Legends Suite Club, featuring performance-cooking stations
  • All-inclusive food and nonalcoholic beverage offerings at the Ketel One Lounge and the Halstead Lounge
  • In-seat wait service
  • Cushioned suite seats
  • Private restrooms in the Legends Suite Club, the Ketel One Lounge and the Halstead Lounge
  • Gameday events in the Legends Suite Club, the Ketel One Lounge and the Halstead Lounge
  • Personal concierge service
How about across the street at Scotiabank?

The Platinum Club:
179812


The Chairman's Suite:
179809


Sher Club:
179815


These premium seating options, fine-dining and club areas are all part of the experience that ensures corporate dollars are actively spent at Scotiabank Arena on a consistent basis. The corporate sponsors and other companies who spend money on season seats do so at such an exorbitant cost because of the amenities listed above. Many companies see the costs of such seats as worthwhile so long as the allure and experience of say, a Leafs game, helps ensure continued business from various clients. If the Jays want to play with the big boys and spend big boy dollars on a consistent basis, the aforementioned premium seating and club options are essential.

And yes, as unfortunate as it is that corporate dollars priced ordinary, regular fans out of the market for Leafs tickets (and the same thing is happening with the Raptors), MLSE requires this type of setup to fill its proverbial coffers. When the Leafs or Raptors have lean years, difficult to access tickets are now a bit easier to come by. These are passed down from executives to lower level workers and so forth. The same dynamic does not apply to the Blue Jays simply because the Rogers Centre is not a modern stadium with premium amenities that appeal to corporate sponsors and season ticket buyers in the same way as Scotibank Arena. That is the reality the Blue Jay organization must strive to rectify and the only way to do so is with the large-scale renovations.
 
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-The Jays are selling 10K tickets/game because the team is plunging, every day a little more, into a massive rebuild. The Leafs and Raptors are in the playoffs. The roof is closed. Gurrero and Bichette are not here. Come July/Aug they'll be more in the 20-25K/range but even then, the fact they're not at 50k has only a small amount to do with the stadium. Correlation is not causation.

-Saying "we used to be a baseball town" when the place was rocking just 2 seasons ago seems kind of short-sighted. I think a few things are getting thrown into the mix here.

-Similarly, the facilities may be one reason players don't come here but I don't think it's massive for them. The visitor weight room sucks? Well, the home one doesn't so if you want a better weight room, come play for the Jays. And they had far worse turf in 1992 and 1993 and had no trouble attracting free agents. Roger Clemens came here a few years after that. if the team is good enough, they'll come. But yes, things keep moving forward and you need to modernize your facilities and keep pace.

(And, having been in the Jays clubhouse, it does seem like there's plenty of room under where they're located to expand them... but players seem to have no trouble migrating to Boston and read up on what their HOME team facilities are like.)

-I get the need for stadium improvements and would like to see some. I doubt it's structurally or financially feasible to knock down the north end, though I confess I do try to visualize it when I'm there. Grass would be nice but it sounds like they realized it's simply not feasible. Shapiro was clearly brought here with the mandate to bring in some big improvements and it's clear no new stadium is in the offing so it's not surprising people are starting to wonder what might be done and when. They must have some big ideas, but maybe more than Rogers wants to spend.

-As for the facilities posted above, I hardly know where to start. I don't own the team, obviously. If I did, yeah, I'd care about all those revenue generators and selling corporate packages. But I'm a fan and I could not give less of a crap. That's all stuff for the proverbial 1%. I've been in boxes a couple of times (at Rogers and at ACC) but those were lucky exceptions. I could go to 100 more games, here or Yankee Stadium or wherever, and never get to Ketel-sponsored lounge or Drake's little cubbyhole or any of that. That's not for people who care about the team. That's not about the fan experience. It's definitely less than 0% about baseball (unlike, say, grass).

That's about corporate bottom line stuff. And, frankly, given how much disposable income Rogers has to toss around, and what they paid for the stadium, it's certainly absolutely meaningless in terms of them needing to generate revenue to inflate the payroll, even if there is a "trickle-down" effect." The kinds of people who would boost attendance by filling those places are the people I don't want to go to a game with anyway. They're the corporate seat-fillers who sit on their hands in the front row of concerts. Maybe I could go to a nice lounge at BMO Field, but then I'd have to watch TFC. Meh.

In the meantime, my suspicion is that, just like season tickets, corporate ticket sales spiked in 2015-16, regardless of the state of the stadium. But today, for a bunch of reasons (one of which is almost certainly the stadium itself), it's not "the place to be."

To sum up my anti-capitalist rant, if you own stock in MLSE or Rogers or whatever, maybe you read the post above and nod. I read it and I think I will never see the inside of any of those places - and I bet the same goes for 90% of the people reading this - so while I understand the broader implications of having the stadium be more of a destination for "money," they're well at the bottom of my personal list of what I'd like to see and I don't think they are what is "holding the team back" in any serious respect.
 
The building is old but has the bones to build anything to match what Scotia bank arena or BMO Field or Yankee stadium can offer.

The old Sightlines restaurant and Hard Rock Cafe offer amazing views of the field (Sportsnet grill now occupies the restaurant space formerly operated by the attached hotel and is not a prestigious place, West Jet flight deck also occupies part of this space). Back in 92/93 these were THE PLACES to be.
The Ticketmaster lounge/suite/whatever is a small step towards this as well
The TD clubhouse offers in seat service (and a dedicated gate entrance) as does the In The action seats. However it is time to refurbish the In The Action Seats to be a more premium experience.
The bars on the 3rd and 1st base side on the 200 level also have the potential to be re-envisioned as premium exclusive areas (like a Ketel lounge, etc

So the spaces are there there just needs to be some imagination into what they can become and the execution to get it done.
 
TJ O'Pootertoot said:
-The Jays are selling 10K tickets/game because the team is plunging, every day a little more, into a massive rebuild. The Leafs and Raptors are in the playoffs. The roof is closed. Gurrero and Bichette are not here. Come July/Aug they'll be more in the 20-25K/range but even then, the fact they're not at 50k has only a small amount to do with the stadium. Correlation is not causation.

-Saying "we used to be a baseball town" when the place was rocking just 2 seasons ago seems kind of short-sighted. I think a few things are getting thrown into the mix here.
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Yes, you are correct on this. The state of the team absolutely plays the largest role in determining attendance. The not-a-baseball town argument is frustrating considering our attendance was never horrendously bad in our worst years, even with a 20+ year playoff drought.

TJ O'Pootertoot said:
-Similarly, the facilities may be one reason players don't come here but I don't think it's massive for them. The visitor weight room sucks? Well, the home one doesn't so if you want a better weight room, come play for the Jays. And they had far worse turf in 1992 and 1993 and had no trouble attracting free agents. Roger Clemens came here a few years after that. if the team is good enough, they'll come. But yes, things keep moving forward and you need to modernize your facilities and keep pace.

(And, having been in the Jays clubhouse, it does seem like there's plenty of room under where they're located to expand them... but players seem to have no trouble migrating to Boston and read up on what their HOME team facilities are like.)
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The Jays have definitely spruced up the clubhouse and facilities in recent years. The new Jays' clubhouse was a much needed change. Although Fenway is quite small and remains somewhat outdated (although that is part of the park's allure), the team and ownership have made continued efforts to improve the venue over the years. More upgrades to the area surrounding Fenway are also in the works (more revenue generators):

https://ballparkdigest.com/2018/12/20/red-sox-pitch-latest-fenway-park-upgrades/

The massive renovation done at Wrigley is a more recent example of large-scale modernization of an ageing facility:

https://ballparkdigest.com/2019/04/08/wrigley-field-1060-project-ends-on-a-high-note/

Of particular note from the Wrigley upgrades: "...including three new clubs and a host of new social spaces."

TJ O'Pootertoot said:
-I get the need for stadium improvements and would like to see some. I doubt it's structurally or financially feasible to knock down the north end, though I confess I do try to visualize it when I'm there. Grass would be nice but it sounds like they realized it's simply not feasible. Shapiro was clearly brought here with the mandate to bring in some big improvements and it's clear no new stadium is in the offing so it's not surprising people are starting to wonder what might be done and when. They must have some big ideas, but maybe more than Rogers wants to spend.

-As for the facilities posted above, I hardly know where to start. I don't own the team, obviously. If I did, yeah, I'd care about all those revenue generators and selling corporate packages. But I'm a fan and I could not give less of a crap. That's all stuff for the proverbial 1%. I've been in boxes a couple of times (at Rogers and at ACC) but those were lucky exceptions. I could go to 100 more games, here or Yankee Stadium or wherever, and never get to Ketel-sponsored lounge or Drake's little cubbyhole or any of that. That's not for people who care about the team. That's not about the fan experience. It's definitely less than 0% about baseball (unlike, say, grass).

That's about corporate bottom line stuff. And, frankly, given how much disposable income Rogers has to toss around, and what they paid for the stadium, it's certainly absolutely meaningless in terms of them needing to generate revenue to inflate the payroll, even if there is a "trickle-down" effect." The kinds of people who would boost attendance by filling those places are the people I don't want to go to a game with anyway. They're the corporate seat-fillers who sit on their hands in the front row of concerts. Maybe I could go to a nice lounge at BMO Field, but then I'd have to watch TFC. Meh.

In the meantime, my suspicion is that, just like season tickets, corporate ticket sales spiked in 2015-16, regardless of the state of the stadium. But today, for a bunch of reasons (one of which is almost certainly the stadium itself), it's not "the place to be."

To sum up my anti-capitalist rant, if you own stock in MLSE or Rogers or whatever, maybe you read the post above and nod. I read it and I think I will never see the inside of any of those places - and I bet the same goes for 90% of the people reading this - so while I understand the broader implications of having the stadium be more of a destination for "money," they're well at the bottom of my personal list of what I'd like to see and I don't think they are what is "holding the team back" in any serious respect.
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I think if you compare what the SkyDome offers amenity-wise compared to what's been done at Fenway or Wrigley Field, the differences become more stark in my mind. Boston and the Cubs are two large-market teams, more so than the Jays at this point and have been for at least the last 20 - 25 years. This is what the Jays are capable of becoming and evolving into a truly upper-tier franchise, revenue wise, takes more than simply selling 50,000 tickets a night at an average value of CAD$50.00. It's understandable that the average fan could care less about amenities and private clubs beneath the grandstands, but corporate ticket owners do and that is the current reality of modern day professional sports. It's difficult to fathom and accept that Leafs and Raptors tickets are no longer readily accessible to the common fan without deep pockets or connections but these fans also don't complain when the Leafs sign a Tavares or the Raptors have a good chance at re-signing Kawhi Leonard to a max contract of $30+ million per season. The organizations can afford to pay players these types of contracts because their revenue streams are so lucrative. The Jays are only lucrative when they win, which is nice, but it doesn't create a long-lasting cycle of stability and financial prowess in the same way the Leafs and Raptors can profit off their winning ways.

MLSE has the advantage of Scotiabank Arena existing as a sort of status symbol for corporate types, casual and hardcore fans alike. If C-suite exec doesn't want to go to the Leafs game because they suck, he passes the tickets along to manager A who may go or continue passing the tickets along. The seats are still paid for regardless of who actually attends the game, or doesn't. The Jays do not have that luxury thanks in large part to the outdated nature of the Dome and its inability to attract more high-end corporate dollars. On the flip side, sure, Rogers can throw money around will-nilly but in baseball, throwing money at players doesn't guarantee on-field success. The team has to generate revenue to justify the spending. As a caveat, should Rogers drop half a billion on the Dome, attendance and fan engagement increases thus raising revenues, and the corporate suits still refuse to spend, then, yes I'll be pissed. In the meantime, based on existing trends in MLB and other leagues, I think the path to greater spending goes through the Dome first and foremost.
 
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Translude15 said:
I think if you compare what the SkyDome offers amenity-wise compared to what's been done at Fenway or Wrigley Field, the differences become more stark in my mind. Boston and the Cubs are two large-market teams, more so than the Jays at this point and have been for at least the last 20 - 25 years. This is what the Jays are capable of becoming and evolving into a truly upper-tier franchise, revenue wise, takes more than simply selling 50,000 tickets a night at an average value of CAD$50.00. It's understandable that the average fan could care less about amenities and private clubs beneath the grandstands, but corporate ticket owners do and that is the current reality of modern day professional sports. It's difficult to fathom and accept that Leafs and Raptors tickets are no longer readily accessible to the common fan without deep pockets or connections but these fans also don't complain when the Leafs sign a Tavares or the Raptors have a good chance at re-signing Kawhi Leonard to a max contract of $30+ million per season. The organizations can afford to pay players these types of contracts because their revenue streams are so lucrative. The Jays are only lucrative when they win, which is nice, but it doesn't create a long-lasting cycle of stability and financial prowess in the same way the Leafs and Raptors can profit off their winning ways.

MLSE has the advantage of Scotiabank Arena existing as a sort of status symbol for corporate types, casual and hardcore fans alike. If C-suite exec doesn't want to go to the Leafs game because they suck, he passes the tickets along to manager A who may go or continue passing the tickets along. The seats are still paid for regardless of who actually attends the game, or doesn't. The Jays do not have that luxury thanks in large part to the outdated nature of the Dome and its inability to attract more high-end corporate dollars. On the flip side, sure, Rogers can throw money around will-nilly but in baseball, throwing money at players doesn't guarantee on-field success. The team has to generate revenue to justify the spending. As a caveat, should Rogers drop half a billion on the Dome, attendance and fan engagement increases thus raising revenues, and the corporate suits still refuse to spend, then, yes I'll be pissed. In the meantime, based on existing trends in MLB and other leagues, I think the path to greater spending goes through the Dome first and foremost.
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Don't forget that the Jays have 81 home games per regular season, while the Leafs and Raptors both have 41 home games per regular season. The Dome has a higher capacity than the Richer-Than-You-Think Arena.

There's a very good reason why, of the four major professional sports leagues in North America, baseball has the cheapest tickets on average.
 
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