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Roads: Ontario/GTA Highways Discussion

yeah be honest that strech needs the highway expanded.

I know people dont like the idea of building more highways but the 401 is the lifeline of our urban region.
 
yeah be honest that strech needs the highway expanded.

I know people dont like the idea of building more highways but the 401 is the lifeline of our urban region.

And oil is the lifeblood of the Alberta economy, and Oshawa is known as the car-making capital of Canada............hmmmm.

Things can change; and in some cases should change.

I'm not suggesting removing or narrowing the 401; but alternatives to its expansion need to take priority. We can't keep making excuses that transit sucks etc.

It sucks because the money that would have improved it has been hoovered up by endless highway expansion.
 
And oil is the lifeblood of the Alberta economy, and Oshawa is known as the car-making capital of Canada............hmmmm.

Things can change; and in some cases should change.

I'm not suggesting removing or narrowing the 401; but alternatives to its expansion need to take priority. We can't keep making excuses that transit sucks etc.

It sucks because the money that would have improved it has been hoovered up by endless highway expansion.

With the population growth, we need more infrastructure and is not an 'or' situations. We need wider highways, more highways and much better transit.
 
With the population growth, we need more infrastructure and is not an 'or' situations. We need wider highways, more highways and much better transit.

We will have to fundamentally disagree.

Its not ideological. Its math.

The largest centre of job growth is DT Toronto. The highways into DT will not be widened; there won't be any new ones either; and roads in DT are being narrowed/pedestrianized, meaning less capacity for existing car traffic.

You can widen the 401 to 20 lanes, but what happens when it tries to funnel down the same 3-lane SB DVP? What happens when that traffic hits downtown and has nowhere to go?

It just doesn't make sense to me.

To the extent we can shift some jobs to nodes outside the core, that shift will largely be at the expense of large GO parking lots, and road space, and will be well served by transit.

There is no sense to tying up the money in highways.

Moreover, even those burbs are starting to cut some traffic lanes off local arterials.

This is not a have your cake and eat it too scenario. Its pick one.

I choose transit, and active transportation. I say that as a car-owning driver, btw.
 
I like to see the numbers on investment into km lanes of highway built/expanded vs mass transit in the GTAH over the past 40 years. I dont think mass transit will come anywhere close to highway investment
 
The largest centre of job growth is DT Toronto. The highways into DT will not be widened; there won't be any new ones either; and roads in DT are being narrowed/pedestrianized, meaning less capacity for existing car traffic.

You can widen the 401 to 20 lanes, but what happens when it tries to funnel down the same 3-lane SB DVP? What happens when that traffic hits downtown and has nowhere to go?

It just doesn't make sense to me.

If we treat any highway widening as a tool to funnel more commuters into DT Toronto, then surely it doesn't make sense. The central part of the road system being at capacity, adding more feeder traffic would just increase the length of traffic jams.

However, trips and economic activity in the rural areas sufficiently remote from Toronto arent't necessarily centered around those commuter trips. In such cases, highway widening might make sense IMO.
 
We will have to fundamentally disagree.

Its not ideological. Its math.

The largest centre of job growth is DT Toronto. The highways into DT will not be widened; there won't be any new ones either; and roads in DT are being narrowed/pedestrianized, meaning less capacity for existing car traffic.

You can widen the 401 to 20 lanes, but what happens when it tries to funnel down the same 3-lane SB DVP? What happens when that traffic hits downtown and has nowhere to go?

It just doesn't make sense to me.

To the extent we can shift some jobs to nodes outside the core, that shift will largely be at the expense of large GO parking lots, and road space, and will be well served by transit.

There is no sense to tying up the money in highways.

Moreover, even those burbs are starting to cut some traffic lanes off local arterials.

This is not a have your cake and eat it too scenario. Its pick one.

I choose transit, and active transportation. I say that as a car-owning driver, btw.

I used to be of the same thoughts as you but I'll show you why I changed my mind.,
1) Those points are focused on commuting. I am concerned about all vehicles using the highways, including B2B (trucks) and leisure. Trucks coming in from the US on the 401 are not headed for downtown. As more people move to Ontario, more infrastructure is needed. As a animal grows, it needs more and bigger veins to transport nourishment. (this is the main and most important reason)
2) Regarding commercial investment, Toronto had a multi decade drought in building, the future is downtown Toronto but its also a bit of catching up.
3) Business knows it's too expensive to live in the GTA and branches are opened in places like London, Kitchener /Waterloo, etc.
4) While on the job search recently, I was focused on the downtown core but most of the jobs were Markham, Scarborough and Mississauga. For many, that would mean a trip on the 401.

While I completely agree with your sentiment and would prefer a Toronto where your proposal was the best one. The GTA doesn't have the land use pattern for it. I'd rather Ontario was as economically successful as possible, which includes an increase in all transportation infrastructure.

I recently (unfortunately) ended 8 years without a car ;)
 
I used to be of the same thoughts as you but I'll show you why I changed my mind.,
1) Those points are focused on commuting. I am concerned about all vehicles using the highways, including B2B (trucks) and leisure. Trucks coming in from the US on the 401 are not headed for downtown. As more people move to Ontario, more infrastructure is needed. As a animal grows, it needs more and bigger veins to transport nourishment. (this is the main and most important reason)
2) Regarding commercial investment, Toronto had a multi decade drought in building, the future is downtown Toronto but its also a bit of catching up.
3) Business knows it's too expensive to live in the GTA and branches are opened in places like London, Kitchener /Waterloo, etc.
4) While on the job search recently, I was focused on the downtown core but most of the jobs were Markham, Scarborough and Mississauga. For many, that would mean a trip on the 401.

While I completely agree with your sentiment and would prefer a Toronto where your proposal was the best one. The GTA doesn't have the land use pattern for it. I'd rather Ontario was as economically successful as possible, which includes an increase in all transportation infrastructure.

I recently (unfortunately) ended 8 years without a car ;)

To which I offer:

1581305166831.png


1581305212862.png


From: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/can...f-jobs-occurring-in-torontos-downtown-report/

Overall with the exception of the Airport Zone, suburban employment growth is negligible.

The growth is all downtown.
 
I'm not suggesting removing or narrowing the 401; but alternatives to its expansion need to take priority. We can't keep making excuses that transit sucks etc.

It sucks because the money that would have improved it has been hoovered up by endless highway expansion.

Sometimes I think about this. Not removing or narrowing a highway, but instead looking at putting the money toward commuter rail. Take this Durham example. It's about 45km to Union from Brock St in Whitby along the existing GO corridor at the very south end of Durham. But along the CP corridor that bisects central and northern Pickering, Ajax, and Whitby it's 50km to Union from Brock. A mere 5km longer, on a route with lots of grade-separations, with a much greater capture than the existing GO corridor down at the bottom of the region (its one and only line). We should build a commuter service along there. Yet it's completely ignored. And if it's acknowledged, then it's pushed off into some never time in the future.
 
Sometimes I think about this. Not removing or narrowing a highway, but instead looking at putting the money toward commuter rail. Take this Durham example. It's about 45km to Union from Brock St in Whitby along the existing GO corridor at the very south end of Durham. But along the CP corridor that bisects central and northern Pickering, Ajax, and Whitby it's 50km to Union from Brock. A mere 5km longer, on a route with lots of grade-separations, with a much greater capture than the existing GO corridor down at the bottom of the region (its one and only line). We should build a commuter service along there. Yet it's completely ignored. And if it's acknowledged, then it's pushed off into some never time in the future.
Commuter rail is great for long distance travel to Toronto downtown but as the name implies it isn't designed for local travels or 905-to-905 travels. Nor does it remove any truck traffic on the 401. Unfortunately investing in commuter rail has low impact in dispersing traffic. I feel like a duplication of service in Durham isn't going to attract a lot of rider but instead simply split the riders on Lakeshore East at a very high operating cost.

No one is going to take the GO train from Pickering to Whitby if they have a car cause the local transit network sucks. No one is going to abandon their cars to sit on buses taking 3x more time. It's going to take a lot more investment and government policies to get people out of their cars. Until that changes, there would be no point of having service on the CP corridor.
 
The issue is the suburbs, a 30 min drive is like 1.5 hours on many transit systems. Until then I will drive a car as I dont want to waste 10 hours of my life each week.
 
To which I offer:

View attachment 230146

View attachment 230147

From: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/can...f-jobs-occurring-in-torontos-downtown-report/

Overall with the exception of the Airport Zone, suburban employment growth is negligible.

The growth is all downtown.
I love these graphs, thanks. My bet is that this pattern has accelerated since 2016, too.

Toronto's traffic is surprisingly similar to what it was a decade ago considering the growth that has occurred largely because of this. GO's rapid expansion and Toronto's increased population growth have put a huge strain on the TTC but has resulted in much less traffic. I'm interested to see how much commuter modal shares have changed in the 2021 census vs. 2016.. I would bet its an even larger decrease than 2011-2016.

Doesn't mean I don't think highway widenings aren't needed, but I'm like others and think that this city just needs stupid amounts of infrastructure spending on all fronts, roads, transit, everything.
 
Commuter rail is great for long distance travel to Toronto downtown but as the name implies it isn't designed for local travels or 905-to-905 travels. Nor does it remove any truck traffic on the 401. Unfortunately investing in commuter rail has low impact in dispersing traffic. I feel like a duplication of service in Durham isn't going to attract a lot of rider but instead simply split the riders on Lakeshore East at a very high operating cost.

No one is going to take the GO train from Pickering to Whitby if they have a car cause the local transit network sucks. No one is going to abandon their cars to sit on buses taking 3x more time. It's going to take a lot more investment and government policies to get people out of their cars. Until that changes, there would be no point of having service on the CP corridor.

Take a look at ridership #'s at Pickering/Ajax/Whitby and compare to the number of available parking spaces. It's pretty much a 1:1 ratio, therefore ridership growth is constrained by available parking. So if there were a GO route through Northern Durham, rather than cannibalizing the existing service it will likely take some of the pressure off of those stations and allow for some growth. Furthermore a Northern route would give access to some destinations not near Union, particularly if this new route uses the midtown line through Toronto.

Pickering to Whiby is never going to be a goal of regional rail, the two centres are 1) Too close together and 2) the actual centres where jobs are located are nowhere near the stations.
 

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