News   May 18, 2021
 685     0 
News   May 18, 2021
 970     1 
News   May 18, 2021
 699     0 

Roads: GTA West Corridor—Highway 413—Guelph to 400

sche

Active Member
Member Bio
Joined
Apr 5, 2019
Messages
187
Reaction score
431
If they tolled the 401, where will all the trucks go? Onto city streets creating noise at night and creating more traffic? Meanwhile all the sales goods increase in price as it takes longer to deliver things.
Tolls will reduce congestion though. Trucking companies will save some money vs the status quo because of faster trips on a tolled 401. We could even make tolls lower for trucks to incentivize them to stay on the highway.

If tolls for trucks are low, the economics might work out such that it is cheaper to pay the toll and ship stuff faster (thus paying less in truck maintenance and driver wages) than to avoid the toll and ship stuff slower.
 

Northern Light

Superstar
Member Bio
Joined
May 20, 2007
Messages
11,907
Reaction score
19,354
Location
Toronto/EY
The only downside is that there’s gonna be a huge percentage of drivers filling up the streets in the whole gta parallel to the highways. Imagine all these streets filled up to highway levels

- Lakeshore Blvd/Queensway (King/Queen)/Dundas/Bloor/St Clair for the Gardiner
- Bayview/Don Mills for the DVP
- Highway 27/Weston/Jane for the 400
- Finch/Sheppard/Wilson/Lawerence/Eglinton for the 401 (Toronto)
- Derry/Britannia/Eglinton/(Kingston Rd/Highway 2)/(Bayly/Victoria)/(Steeles/Taunton)/Highway 7 for the 401 (GTA)
- Eglinton/Burnamthorpe for the 403 (Mississauga)
- Lakeshore Rd/Dundas for the QEW/403 (Halton) and QEW (Mississauga)
- (Don Mills/Leslie)/Bayview/Woodbine/Kennedy (Markham) for the 404
- Dixie/Kennedy (Brampton)/Highway 10/Bramalea for the 410
- Highway 27/Goreway/Airport Rd/Martin Grove for the 427

Now that’s a lot of roads and i know i’ve missed a lot but that’s the point, there’s always going to be some cheap people who are always going to find a way out of these tolls. I know the whole ‘toll all gta highways so we can buy back the 407 with the generated revenue’ plan sounds like a good one but this downside is basically recoil and a compromise for everyone

Except that's not what happens.

We have modelling studies.

First, people are generally not going to take a 'free' road that takes 2x or more the time.

If you already commute 1 hour, you're not going to go for 2 to avoid a $6 toll.

So the majority of traffic will stay where it is (and the toll be priced to ensure this; as the government or private authority as the case may be wants to profit, which is function of margin x volume).

Second, of those who are open to switching, where a GO route would be a practical option, many will switch to that.

Some will also (over time) switch jobs or move in order to lessen their commute or commute cost.

At the end of the day you'll see some uptick on parallel roads, when they serve the same purpose, when there is spare capacity and when there are a lack of good transit alternatives.

But you will not see highway level traffic diverting on to local roads wholesale.

For an easy comparison, look at parking in downtown Toronto.

25 years ago; one could park all-day underground for maybe $8; and on a surface lot by Church or Peter or as little as $2.

As the price of parking has spiked, massively, and surface lots have disappeared; you have not seen people parking en masse on the street and feeding the proverbial meter, nor are people parking in private drives or illegal spaces in much greater numbers than they were, nor did demand for parking collapse, notwithstanding increases in price of 250-450% adjusted for inflation.

Instead, more people take transit; a number moved downtown to avoid the commute, and the rest are paying their increased parking tab.
 
Last edited:

Undead

Active Member
Member Bio
Joined
Sep 3, 2020
Messages
995
Reaction score
1,807
@anb before the pandemic all those roads were already bumper to bumper in rush hour so perhaps it wouldn't change that much?
 

afransen

Senior Member
Member Bio
Joined
Apr 22, 2007
Messages
4,533
Reaction score
3,197
The only downside is that there’s gonna be a huge percentage of drivers filling up the streets in the whole gta parallel to the highways. Imagine all these streets filled up to highway levels

- Lakeshore Blvd/Queensway (King/Queen)/Dundas/Bloor/St Clair for the Gardiner
- Bayview/Don Mills for the DVP
- Highway 27/Weston/Jane for the 400
- Finch/Sheppard/Wilson/Lawerence/Eglinton for the 401 (Toronto)
- Derry/Britannia/Eglinton/(Kingston Rd/Highway 2)/(Bayly/Victoria)/(Steeles/Taunton)/Highway 7 for the 401 (GTA)
- Eglinton/Burnamthorpe for the 403 (Mississauga)
- Lakeshore Rd/Dundas for the QEW/403 (Halton) and QEW (Mississauga)
- (Don Mills/Leslie)/Bayview/Woodbine/Kennedy (Markham) for the 404
- Dixie/Kennedy (Brampton)/Highway 10/Bramalea for the 410
- Highway 27/Goreway/Airport Rd/Martin Grove for the 427

Now that’s a lot of roads and i know i’ve missed a lot but that’s the point, there’s always going to be some cheap people who are always going to find a way out of these tolls. I know the whole ‘toll all gta highways so we can buy back the 407 with the generated revenue’ plan sounds like a good one but this downside is basically recoil and a compromise for everyone
These are already all fairly congested. People will not be willing to drive 100 km at 30kph on arterials.
 

afransen

Senior Member
Member Bio
Joined
Apr 22, 2007
Messages
4,533
Reaction score
3,197
If they tolled the 401, where will all the trucks go? Onto city streets creating noise at night and creating more traffic? Meanwhile all the sales goods increase in price as it takes longer to deliver things.
A truck and driver costs ~$75-100/hr. You won't send him on an arterial at 25kph to avoid 110 kph on the highway with a moderate toll.
 

Haljackey

Active Member
Member Bio
Joined
Apr 12, 2010
Messages
546
Reaction score
236
Location
London, Ontario
Huh? Toll the 401?

I need a 'free way' to drive to places like Kingston and Ottawa from London. If the 401 was tolled how am I supposed to do this?

If the 401 is tolled, remove the tolls on the 407. That's never goona happen but my argument stands: one needs to be free, and it's the 401.

Back on topic, this free route could be the 413, but it will need to go back to the 401 east of Toronto. It also might just be too far out of the way since it's quite a detour around Greater Toronto.
 

Northern Light

Superstar
Member Bio
Joined
May 20, 2007
Messages
11,907
Reaction score
19,354
Location
Toronto/EY
Huh? Toll the 401?

I need a 'free way' to drive to places like Kingston and Ottawa from London. If the 401 was tolled how am I supposed to do this?

If the 401 is tolled, remove the tolls on the 407. That's never goona happen but my argument stands: one needs to be free, and it's the 401.

Back on topic, this free route could be the 413, but it will need to go back to the 401 east of Toronto. It also might just be too far out of the way since it's quite a detour around Greater Toronto.

Why do you need a 'free' route?

Do you also need free rent for a place to live? Free food so you eat? Free phone so you can talk?

It turns out most things you need, you also pay for.

I'm unclear on why a highway should be any different.
 

afransen

Senior Member
Member Bio
Joined
Apr 22, 2007
Messages
4,533
Reaction score
3,197
Huh? Toll the 401?

I need a 'free way' to drive to places like Kingston and Ottawa from London. If the 401 was tolled how am I supposed to do this?

If the 401 is tolled, remove the tolls on the 407. That's never goona happen but my argument stands: one needs to be free, and it's the 401.

Back on topic, this free route could be the 413, but it will need to go back to the 401 east of Toronto. It also might just be too far out of the way since it's quite a detour around Greater Toronto.
Driving is not and has never been free.

I agree that the toll should be nominal off-peak. So you would be able to drive London to Ottawa and pay only a modest toll if you pass through Toronto off-peak (say, after 9pm).
 

Wm Perkins Bull

Active Member
Member Bio
Joined
Feb 4, 2020
Messages
128
Reaction score
165
Location
Brampton, ON
Freeway tolls should be structured to discourage short distance travel, and reduce congestion; 400 series should not regularly have travel speed drop below 40 km/h. The US is currently working towards a fully interoperable toll system, the toll system in Ontario should be compatible with it, which will make it much more convenient for trucking. As the cost of freeway costs being transferred to user fees, gas taxes revenue in Ontario should be shifted to municipalities for transportation purposes.
 

Mercenary

Active Member
Member Bio
Joined
Mar 4, 2019
Messages
292
Reaction score
404
I think Trucks needs to be banned from highways during rush hours...from 6am-10am and 3pm-7pm. London, UK did this same thing and that really helped with traffic.

Or they should move all trucks to 407 and give them a dedicated truck lane. Province should negotiate with 407 to pay for trucks.
 

junctionist

Senior Member
Member Bio
Joined
May 1, 2007
Messages
8,778
Reaction score
2,228
Location
The Junction, Toronto
We could just toll all the freeways in one yearly fee like in certain countries like Austria and the Czech Republic. You have to have a sticker on your windshield that costs 92.50 Euros in Austria per year to use the country's freeways.

They have cameras that scan every vehicle for the stickers in random places. If you don't have the sticker, they mail you a ticket. If you don't want to pay for the sticker, you can still use local roads.
 

sacred

Active Member
Member Bio
Joined
Sep 2, 2020
Messages
136
Reaction score
306
We could just toll all the freeways in one yearly fee like in certain countries like Austria and the Czech Republic. You have to have a sticker on your windshield that costs 92.50 Euros in Austria per year to use the country's freeways.

They have cameras that scan every vehicle for the stickers in random places. If you don't have the sticker, they mail you a ticket. If you don't want to pay for the sticker, you can still use local roads.
But then you’re not paying per use and not helping reduce peak traffic...
 

Top