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Proposed GO Transit Purchase of O-Train vehicles

They are nice trains. It's the truth (according to me).
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I can second that. And they are great for those who travel by bike with plenty of space and low floor access.

Just to add to the sensibility of using the Stouffville line, they are allready undertaking a $47 million project to construct an underpass to divide the GO corridor and a CN Rail corridor (see press release here). It is entirely possible that they had an LRT plan in mind when they planned the underpass project but no diamond intersections this makes the line an ideal candidate. Also note that this project will finish at the end of 2007. Given OC Transpo will likely decommision use of the Talents sometime in mid 2007 to rebuild the current stretch of track, it would be a fair to assume that the Talents can be delivered and for GO to have their new service up and running by the end of 2007 or early 2008.
 
There's only one solution: hundreds of millions of dollars and years of construction. It's all part of GO's capital plan, though, so it should happen over the next few years. I'm still a big fan of the idea of diverting the Milton line in a little tunnel under Hurontario to a station at Square One, and then west along the busway route until it rejoins the GO corridor. It would cost a couple hundred million dollars but would dramatically improve access to Mississauga City Centre.

This Stouffville project makes sense because there's virtually no other traffic on the line, just like the old CP line the O-Trains used in Ottawa. The latter was also single track, with a passing siding at Carleton University. This allowed a 15 minute frequency with two trainsets. A third was kept in reserve. As a result of the greater length of the Stouffville corridor, I expect that they will operate hourly frequencies connecting with the Lakeshore trains. Two trainsets should be more than sufficient.
 
There is another possible benefit from this. From a political and public relations point of view, GO, TTC and the GTTA could really gain some traction. As someone mentioned this line could be used as a way to help manage traffic when SRT is being replaced. If all 3 agencies were to make an announcement together it would help demonstrate that regional cooperation is now taking place for the benefit of citizens. Of course the GTTA gains by showing the public its relevance as a regional coordinating agency, TTC would do well to do anything to help its image right now after the labour relations issues it has had. And of course GO can appears as the leader and forward thinker in regional transport. All around, a good chance to gain more public support.

This allowed a 15 minute frequency with two trainsets.
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Actually 15 minute frequencies were never realized. They ended up remaining at 20 minutes for a number of reasons. (Largely the trip itself ended up taking 15.4 - 15.9 minutes on average).
 
The PR for the GTTA was the first thing I thought of when I saw this. It'll be a great way to demonstrate to everyone the value of the organization, and hopefully will allow them to get both the public and their government overloads behind them.
 
Two things I'd might like to see if the O-Train comes to the Stouffville line:

1. A connection built between the Stouffville line tracks and the Scarborough RT that would allow the O-Train to operate on the SRT (which is the only part of the TTC that runs on standard railway gauge). That opens up a lot of options, like TTC being able to borrow the O-Trains from GO during peak hours to run on the SRT to relieve crowding problems, or letting the trains run into Scarborough Centre at any time in the day.

The downside is that the SRT station platforms are too high for the O-Train doors, but perhaps potential passengers (like me) won't mind a little physical exercise for a quick comfortable ride on the O-Train.

2. A race between the SRT trains and the O-Train... which train can get from Kennedy to Ellesmere the fastest?
 
"Actually 15 minute frequencies were never realized. They ended up remaining at 20 minutes for a number of reasons. (Largely the trip itself ended up taking 15.4 - 15.9 minutes on average)."

That was only when the line first started operating and poor track along the line and at the diamonds forced slow operation. It's been operating on 15-minute headways for years now. Just check the OC Transpo website.
 
GREAT SCOTT!

GO TRANSIT MAY ACTUALLY SUPPORT BIKES ON TRAINS (the Talents have a door with a bicycle label on it).

OH THE HORROR! THE HORROR!

I once took a train from Port Credit. En route, a GO employee discovered a cyclist and kicked him off at the very next stop, just because the train was going to stop at Union Station during rush hour. It was a fascist, heavy-handed gesture. The cyclist may have intended to get off at any stop between.

I love cycling! Note that it is impossible to take a bicycle on a GO bus, inside or out. What a contrast to the US where over half (my estimate) provide bike racks. Vancouver and Ottawa are two exceptions here in the Canada.
 
"Two trainsets should be more than sufficient."

Wouldn't they have to build a short passing track somewhere? I'm 99% sure there are none currently. Not that it would be expensive or anything.
 
Cdl: My mistake. The last time I took the O-Train I can remember 20 minute frequencies still in use but I guess they moved past those issues in the end.

scarb: They will indeed have to constuct passing track. On the O-Train line they had the passing track and passing take place at the Carleton Station. But that line was only 8km long so if the Stouffville line is much longer than that then there might be sections for passing in more than one spot.
 
Without knowing exactly how much land is required or is available within the existing CN corridor, there are stretches of land 'available' near McNicoll, Kennedy, and the 407. I'd have to take a closer look at existing (and potential? Hello, Finch!) stations to see if trains could pass each other there. Maybe they'll sneak one in at the rejigged Hagerman interchange.
 
^That actually makes me wonder a few things. Who exactly owns the corridor (sorry for the ignorrance on a rather simple question but I dont have a Toronto map that shows ownership)? And with the new underpass, is it being constructed too accomodate dual track or just the existing single track? And as scarb said, is the corridor wide enough to accomodate dual tracks? Or triple track in the case that it is owned by a freight company and GO wanted to construct two dedicated passenger rail tracks? Or would they have to egage in headaches and political battles over expropriation of land and property?

What I think is going to be most interesting to see is what exactly they do with the line and the Talent train sets. I could see three possible plans developed by GO.

1 - The line is dedicated soley to rail transport using the talents. Bi-level coach service to Union is stopped completely and instead the Talents run at 30 minute frequencies (perhaps one hour in the later portion of the day) and simply connect with Scarborough and other TTC connections. I see this as least likely since it will mean commuters would have to transfer at Scarborough instead of their usual direct route and this may not jive with many customers.

2 - Bi-level, direct to Union service remains as is. However, in the time that commuter service is not running (afternoon and evenings after each repsective rush hour period) the Talents are operated at 30 - 60 minute frequencies making use of the line in what would other wise be empty track time. This would have the advantage in that the Talents and Bi-levels would never operate at the same time and might easily satisfy Transport Canadas safety requirements for the mixing of light and heavy rail.

3 - Essentially option 2 but LRTs are run at all times even when Bi-level direct to Union service is operating. This would likely be a tough sell to Transport Canada since it would directly mix light and heavy rail. But, if for example every station contained double track so that passing could be negotiated in an adequate number of places they may be open to the idea. This could implemented from the outset or it could be part of a second phase of a pilot project.

Of course there are probably many more ideas that could be explored. I stuck with the just those 3 given that I am assuming this will be released as a pilot project and GO will probably want to keep it simple and inexpensive for a 2 or 3 year test period. I know some or just going to want them to jump head first into this kind of service but I think GO would be making a very smart and logical choice of conducting a pilot project first and gaining a good deal of knowledge and experience so that when larger projects are undertaken they have a much stronger understanding and knowledge base from which to work from and develop new projects more successfully.
 
I don't see triple tracking being feasible at all, while dual tracking the entire Stouffville line would cost a bloody fortune...you'd need about 6 bridges and a dozen road over/underpasses, plus the RT/whatever replaces it complicates it all. Acquiring assorted slivers of land along the way wouldn't be difficult since there's a decent amount of vacant lots, but if a continuous swath of them is needed, it might be difficult since it does back onto hundreds of backyards. I wouldn't be surprised it the existing tracks ran right down the centre of the corridor in Scarborough, effectively killing the chance to easily squeak in a second track. Only someone who knows how much room is needed could say for sure...I don't know if more tracks can fit. The corridor seems a fair bit wider in much of Markham than in Scarborough, though.
 
The only way to know for sure would be to take a trip down the corridor and do a visual inspection. From any information and photos I have been able to dig up tonight, it seems like double tracking would at least be possible in most places.

For this project I'm sure the single track will work (save a few upgrades no doubt). But no matter what corridor you take any track replacement or additions are going to be expensive.

Edit: Here are a few photos that give some indication as to what the Stouffville corridor looks like. (Photos have been borrowed from a few websites but author credits are directly on them). You can see in the two photos below that there is probably enough room for a second track. You can also see that the track is not in the best shape and any major track work done will probably mean replacing it outright, in which case it should be easy enough to accomodate a second track.

p.jpeg

Near Unionville

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Near Scarborough

The next picture shows a rather narrow two track corridor near Mississauga Rd. I thought it was worth posting since it gives a good indication of how two tracks can probably fit within even tight corridors (even if it is not the most desireable solution).

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Near Mississauga Rd.

And the last photo is of a modern GO corridor (it gives a good contrast to the older corridors and illustrates nicely the difference reconstruction can make).

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Rouge River
 
Wylie,

allow the O-Train to operate on the SRT Have you see the O-Trains? They would not fit on the SRT, nor would the be able to negotiate the tight radii turns.
 
I have no doubt that two tracks can theoretically fit within most of the Stouffville corridor, but it just looks like there's certain places where the existing tracks would have to be moved over since they're right in the middle, leaving two slivers that may not be quite wide enough. Most of the line does not have anywhere near the kind of space around the tracks that those pics show - the first is at the Hagerman junction and the second is where it splits off and turns north from the Kingston sub. Yet the corridor cannot be unusually narrow and if it's been done elsewhere, it can be done here. If they replace the existing tracks at the same time, it'll virtually guarantee enough room for two tracks everywhere, so I'd say there's no major problems in dual-tracking it, other than the cost, of course...which does become an issue since improved GO service here is pretty much required before the RT can be closed for replacement.
 
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