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Pickering Airport (Transport Canada/GTAA, Proposed)

The biggest hurdle to Pickering becoming a viable airport is having a domestic airline willing to operate out of there.

I think Mark et al. are hoping some foreign LCCs (Southwest, Norwegian, etc.) take up at Pickering.

Is there a market for a LCC/ULCC (Jetlines, Flair? I'm looking at you) to replace what Westjet has left behind?

If you're Westjet or Air Canada, having to split ops and traffic in the GTA, even with your own LCC sucks. And Jetlines, Flair and other LCC/ULCCs don't have enough heft to really create a business case for Pickering. Arguably there's two airlines who could really do well in Pickering: Sunwing and Transat. And one of those just got picked up by AC.

I do believe the population base is there to support it if there is an airline, or group of airlines, that would operate out of it.

Sure the population is there. But is it really economically worthwhile? Like I've said earlier, AC and Westjet will modify their schedule and use larger planes to boost efficiency and open new destinations. Effectively this means that Pickering is meant to serve destinations that won't have a lot of frequency and will be served with smaller aircraft. Is that really all that valuable? And why can't that traffic be served from Hamilton?

We need to distinguish between what's good for airport backers, what's good for taxpayers, and what good for GTA residents. Out of all those interests, I only see one group definitely benefiting from the airport. Net negative for taxpayers. And mixed bag for GTA residents.
 
First, the Via Rail HFR plan will use existing rail corridors. No to very few trees or farmland will be affected.

Secondly, if you are comparing the environmental impact of even diesel rail vs passenger air, even ignoring electric rail, I literally laugh so hard I pop a blood vessel.

Thirdly, you speak of hour long trips. Minute to mintue comparison, my trip from Toronto to Montreal on the fastest VIA train we have now, 4h40m, was comparable to the flight.

What? How could that be? By the time I got to Pearson, got to my gate, boarded the plane, got off the plane at Dorval, got my luggage and got to my hotel in Montreal, it was about 4 and a half hours.

You cant beat the Union to Garre Central direct link and comfort that the train offers over flying.

Increase the speed of the train through the HFR program, and that becomes even more lucrative.
Good to hear I can make u laugh!
Rail is an important part of transportation infrastructure and the Toronto to Montreal corridor should see a revival once the new trains are online. But will they be profitable? Especially given the new line buildout and maintenance costs ( including everything from snow clearance to track maintenance). Even if they can hit their target of adding another 8 million riders, will it break even?

Trains are ( or can be ) an efficient mode of transportation on the Windsor to Quebec City corridor. Certainly the 4.1 million passengers last year seem to think so. But can it be price competitive with out the huge government subsidies?
16 cents a passenger Mile in the corridor , 27.5 cents a mile overall is a huge price for the tax payer to swallow every year.

Can it break even? Or make a profit like aviation does?

But don’t think for a minute that this will reduces the demand for new aviation capacity, it doesn’t. The majority of growth is coming from People wanting to travel further than just down the street to Montreal.

Once positive side, as congestion builds at Pearson airline ticket prices are expected to soar. More than one avid fan of rail seems to think this is a good thing. I for one do not. The environmental and economic damage done by this congestion is hard to understate. Ditto for the quality of life and freedom of movement.

Rail could also be a great feeder to aviation capacity out of the defined passenger catchment areas.. Taking a train ride to Waterloo, or a go bus to Hamilton to get a flight to Florida would double travel times but could be cheaper than paying the piper at Pearson. At least it’s a path out of Toronto.
But Nothing can beat the solution of providing locally accessible aviation capacity in Pickering for the 2.3 million people within 30 km radius of the new airport. Double bonus, aviation is both profitable and a big economic efficiency boost.
 
The biggest hurdle to Pickering becoming a viable airport is having a domestic airline willing to operate out of there.

Air Canada is locked into a long term lease at Pearson and won't be leaving
Westjet has now grown out of it's LCC roots and competes directly with AC. It's current international expansion plans means it probably needs to stay at Pearson for the connections.
Porter might be the airline to operate out of Pickering however a) moving operations out of Billy Bishop removes it's major competitive advantage, and having a second hub at Pickering spreads it's resources thin

Is there a market for a LCC/ULCC (Jetlines, Flair? I'm looking at you) to replace what Westjet has left behind?

I do believe the population base is there to support it if there is an airline, or group of airlines, that would operate out of it.
Some good observations. A couple of points about the usual suspects. first AirCanada has the majority of slots at Pearson ( 56%) and its own terminal ( Terminal 1, something’s call the Fortress Hub by its competition) . They are in line to profit big time as the big capacity squeeze at Pearson spools up. Second, Westjet is in a less desirable spot but still better off than the other carriers trying to get to Toronto.
Porter will hit a wall 2023-2024, so it’s going to be hurting for years before
Pickering opens, but it too is n a position to jack fairs and profits.

Once the ticket fair spike starts, every other carrier in North America is going to be looking for a way to do a point to point connect to Toronto. Hamilton and Pickering will be the key points. Given its location Pickering will attract 3 times the passenger load of Hamilton . Both will be winners.

See:
 
Airports are viable without passenger service. So are railways.
True, But Pickering is envisioned in the proposals I have seen (except one), specifically as a Passenger airport.

The odd man out was the Airpark proposal in 2011. This was an all privately funded not for profit proposal of a 400 acre General aviation airport to replace Buttonville ( also a private , profitable airport).

Full disclosure, I had a none paying role developing the aviation and financial details of that Airpark. It was rejected by transport but that is where I learned the lay of the land in the crazy mixed up world of the pickering lands and the billion $$ interest opposing it.
 
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True, But Pickering is envisioned in the proposals I have seen (except one), specifically as a Passenger airport.
So was Mirabel ... because gosh, Dorval is going to be out of capacity by 1985!

Good news though, the Quebec government is talking about finishing the Autoroute Mirabel expressway that should be ready by 1975 to connect Dorval and Mirabel! Well okay, they are talking about studying completing it ...
 
The airpark proposal makes sense. General Aviation capacity is what is actually lacking in the GTA.
 
So was Mirabel ... because gosh, Dorval is going to be out of capacity by 1985!

Good news though, the Quebec government is talking about finishing the Autoroute Mirabel expressway that should be ready by 1975 to connect Dorval and Mirabel! Well okay, they are talking about studying completing it ...
I love the Mirabel myth. It’s a great way to separate out the hoodwinked from the Hoodwinkers. Quick point, Mirabel was built for political reasons to replace Dorval. Since the political forces then decided to keep Dorval open, Mirabel was never needed. Night and day to Toronto where we actually do have a real capacity problem.

On the lighter side it is now the home of Pratt & Whitney and a number of other aviation firms producing billions in finished products including the CSeries jet.

Get the real story here:

 
I love the Mirabel myth. It’s a great way to separate out the hoodwinked from the Hoodwinkers.
We no more need Pickering than we needed Mirabel - perhaps less so with the extra capacity at Hamilton.

That page looks pretty biased - do you have any neutral sources - or are you just pulling this out of your imagination?
 
We no more need Pickering than we needed Mirabel - perhaps less so with the extra capacity at Hamilton.

That page looks pretty biased - do you have any neutral sources - or are you just pulling this out of your imagination?

Mirabel is one of the key cornerstones of Canadian aviation. It has been for years.
I fly into Mirabel about once a month so I have first hand knowledge, but it’s hardly a secret.

Take Pratt & Whitney fo example, you can get a tour of the 300,000 ft Mirabel assembly plant and innovation center. Their phone numbers mover is at the top of their web page:

Or the CSeries now the Airbus 220

Or bells helicopter production, number 5000 rolled of the line just a while ago at Mirabel. They do tours too, highly recommend:

But then you can google all of this with a magic device in your pocket. Try it. Stop being hoodwinked with myths.
 
Arguing about destroying land for rail vs destroying land for an airport that at this point is still not needed is pointless. Lets say we built true HSR between Toronto, Ottawa and Montreal. Lets say it is also run frequently. If it is priced at the same price as airfare between those cities, HSR would be well used. In fact, it might reduce the plane loads to those cites enough to reduce congestion at Pearson. Now, if we also had Hamilton added to the HSR, and we expanded the terminal and grounds at the Hamilton airport, we could further reduce the congestion at Pearson. I still do not see enough of a case for Pickering with those 2 things still able to be done, for about the same cost. In fact, untill Hamilton's Airport is built out, and HSR is built, Pickering should be shelved.
 
It's interesting how the justification has changed for Mirabel from passenger capacity to industrial space. Unfortunately for Pickering proponents, there's no need of an airfield for Toronto's aerospace sector.
 
In fact, it might reduce the plane loads to those cites enough to reduce congestion at Pearson.

There's no might. It will. Madrid,-Zaragoza-Barcelona is very similar to Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal. Similar distance. Hundreds of flights before HSR. A 5.5 hr train ride before HSR. Sound familiar?

Madrid-Barcelona had a 27% drop in air travel the year HSR launched.


Again this is the corridor that is most similar to Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal. Madrid-Barcelona is only 20-30 km longer. Similar to our Corridor they have two large metros at the end and a smaller major metro in the middle. Population numbers are similar for the cities. They had hundreds of flights, just like we do today. There's no better example of how it would work out for us than this specific corridor.
 
Arguing about destroying land for rail vs destroying land for an airport that at this point is still not needed is pointless. Lets say we built true HSR between Toronto, Ottawa and Montreal. Lets say it is also run frequently. If it is priced at the same price as airfare between those cities, HSR would be well used. In fact, it might reduce the plane loads to those cites enough to reduce congestion at Pearson. Now, if we also had Hamilton added to the HSR, and we expanded the terminal and grounds at the Hamilton airport, we could further reduce the congestion at Pearson. I still do not see enough of a case for Pickering with those 2 things still able to be done, for about the same cost. In fact, untill Hamilton's Airport is built out, and HSR is built, Pickering should be shelved.
No offense, but I will take the word of The two independent capacity study’s that tax payers paid millions of $$ for, the 2010 needs assessment and now the KPMG report. The 2010 report, says we need it sometime between 2027- 2037. As we are well above that passenger forecast ( a full 10% above ) that puts us at or before 2027.
It takes 10 years to build Pickering Airport.

The KMPG study has been completed but the Feds are sitting on it as they don’t want it to become an election issue. No Surprise, it is expected to call for an immediate build.

This build can be done with private money using the efficiency of free enterprise because aviation is profitable. The same can not be said for passenger rail in any form in Canada.

Rail, even HSR has a number of big problems,
first, it services only a limited relatively close number of destinations. This is not the international growth fueling Pearson and Toronto.
Second is building and maintenance- it is pricier to build and maintain HSR than an airport. This is due to the larger land foot print. As almost half of southern Ontario is class 1 farmland this is expensive and valuable land.
Third, it is statistically not as safe per passenger mile as air and not as fast.
Fourth, in Canada it is not profitable. Their are only a few HSR lines around the world that are. While the 16 cent per passenger mile subsidy today on the VIA corridor may be reduced by volume, No private investor wants to touch it. It is a massive sinkhole for public funds.

Rails role should be seen as connecting intercity locations. A Go train to Pearson or Hamilton airport would be great. In Hamiltons case they can reopen the old line up the escarpment. Right now there is no rail connection to Hamilton airport.

an hour Train ride is much better than a two hour car ride from the eastern GTA to Hamilton. But it is no substitute for an easily accessible airport in Pickering.

It is my view that aviation is our future, not rail.
 
I love the Mirabel myth. It’s a great way to separate out the hoodwinked from the Hoodwinkers. Quick point, Mirabel was built for political reasons to replace Dorval. Since the political forces then decided to keep Dorval open, Mirabel was never needed. Night and day to Toronto where we actually do have a real capacity problem.

On the lighter side it is now the home of Pratt & Whitney and a number of other aviation firms producing billions in finished products including the CSeries jet.

Get the real story here:


Mirabel was always proposed as a replacement for Dorval, but it never really took over for Dorval. Which is why it became a white elephant. Pickering is proposed as a compliment to Pearson not a replacement, that's what makes the difference between Mirabel and Pickering.
 

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