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Ontario Northland/Northern Ontario Transportation

Well, not quite. For example, we choose to set GO fares a bit below operating cost as a way to get people off the roads. But GO could break even (on operating costs) if it wanted to, so I can see why it exists.

Ontario Northland could never cover its operating costs I think. If Mark's ideas (which sound like good ideas) could put it into the black, then a private company should take over right now. I am sure they could have the assets for a song, so no upfront capital costs.
 
(but mostly I was saying I wish we could beef up the Toronto railway museum) :)
 
k10ery said:
But the service still wouldn't cover its operating costs - passenger rail doesn't in Canada.
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It would if we built it right. Okay, a train to North Bay and Cochrane will never make a profit, but blanket statements like "passenger rail doesn't cover its costs in Canada" are only true because we haven't built a proper passenger rail system. A decent train to Ottawa and Montreal could easily cover its operating costs, and a network of passenger rail in SW Ontario could probably break even too.

I know, a little off topic...
 
I thought Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal did make an operating (though not capital) profit, and was used to subsidize other VIA Rail operations.
 
nfitz said:
I thought Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal did make an operating (though not capital) profit, and was used to subsidize other VIA Rail operations.
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Used to. Last couple of years have been pretty rough on VIA (significantly reduced business class fares).

The "Revenue per Seat-Mile" (page 24) and "Costs per Seat-Mile" (page 27) from the annual report indicate that the Corridor is basically 100% covered by fares but not bringing in an operating profit.


I think Via was the real loser of the Porter/Air Canada/West Jet battle.

http://www.viarail.ca/sites/all/fil...ompany/annual-reports/2010/via_ar_2010_en.pdf
 
rbt said:
Used to.
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Thanks. Good info. Would be interesting to see it lumped by route. They break out Toronto/Ottawa/Montreal/Quebec in one set, and the other south-western Ontario services in another, but no indication how just Toronto-Ottawa does without Montreal-Quebec ... etc.

I'd think the deregulation of the bus industry would have had some impact on them too. You just didn't used to have these ultra-cheap Toronto-Montreal bus tickets.
 
rbt said:
Used to. Last couple of years have been pretty rough on VIA (significantly reduced business class fares).

The "Revenue per Seat-Mile" (page 24) and "Costs per Seat-Mile" (page 27) from the annual report indicate that the Corridor is basically 100% covered by fares but not bringing in an operating profit.


I think Via was the real loser of the Porter/Air Canada/West Jet battle.

http://www.viarail.ca/sites/all/fil...ompany/annual-reports/2010/via_ar_2010_en.pdf
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Interesting. One other way to see the VIA numbers, is they are just settling back to normal after one very good year in 2008. Their passenger load is about the same today as 2006-7.

2008 was the year of the oil price spike. I seem to remember all of us were going to sell our gas guzzlers and take the train everywhere, for a while.
 
k10ery said:
Interesting. One other way to see the VIA numbers, is they are just settling back to normal after one very good year in 2008. Their passenger load is about the same today as 2006-7.
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Yes, their ridership is higher but revenues in 2010 are below 2006 revenues by about 10%. In fact, you have to go back to 2004 to find lower revenues than 2010 without adjusting for inflation.

2002 beats out 2009 for revenue (2002 is the best "Revenue/Cash operating expenses ratio" [essentially farebox recovery ratio] in annual reports published).

300,000 fewer trips in 2002 than 2009 but higher revenues. Ticket prices have definitely gone down and expenses continue to climb. I can see why the feds feel the need to do something, though I personally feel shaving an hour off Corridor trips would fix Via operating subsidies for a while.

Older annual reports are here:

http://www.viarail.ca/en/about-via-rail/our-company/annual-report
 
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k10ery said:
Those all sound like great ideas to increase access and productivity. But the service still wouldn't cover its operating costs - passenger rail doesn't in Canada. So what are we trying to achieve?
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The retention of service isn't actually my prime beef here, it's that the Province is shedding ONTC in what stinks of a panic. No public review, no details of what has been attempted to turn ONR, ON buses, the freight business, the refurbishment business and Ontera around - all of which made net losses in 2010. (Interesting to note that the refurb business is a loss maker given the fuss about it losing the Metrolinx contract)

Because this is a Transportation thread my post focused on what can be done from a transportation standpoint. The tracks between Don Valley and North Bay, properly used, can help the Province delay expensive upgrades to the road network. As long as there is passenger service over them there will be external scrutiny of how CN is maintaining their way (for a counterpoint see the state of the CP track to Peterborough which they are basically running into the ground but hoping that rather than spending anything Dean Del Mastro will take a massive financial outlay off their hands and then give them running rights over the refurbished line!)

That it is a "Northern Ontario problem" remains relevant to Urban Toronto given the fact that it is a link between the 416 and 705 both for Northerners accessing Toronto-based institutions and services and Torontonians accessing recreational and business opportunities in the North.

It may be that for all the outlay being made by the Province, even the improvements I have suggested cannot make the numbers work. But goddammit I want them to try, and try in an open and honest way.
 
Mark, I wanted to say that those are fantastic points you raised on how best to handle the Northlander other than "SELL! KILL! SELL!". If only the government could listen to this sage advice and apply it. I'm not optimistic, though. It's a shame that VIA couldn't take over the Toronto-North Bay train.

My question is, has there been any formal announcement on when the last train is to be? I've ridden the route to Huntsville (an excellent day trip; highly recommended), and I would like to do it one more time before the Northlander vanishes into history.

...James
 
dowlingm said:
The retention of service isn't actually my prime beef here, it's that the Province is shedding ONTC in what stinks of a panic. No public review, no details of what has been attempted to turn ONR, ON buses, the freight business, the refurbishment business and Ontera around - all of which made net losses in 2010. (Interesting to note that the refurb business is a loss maker given the fuss about it losing the Metrolinx contract)
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A reasonable point. Nobody's posted here about the NDP's demand to save the Northland as part of the price for their Budget support. But I see that Martin Regg Cohn is predicting that this demand will get dropped as part of the final deal. He seems pretty plugged into NDP thinking, so I would guess there will be no sober reconsideration of the future of ONTR.
 
It's funny because ONTC spent the better part of a million dollars renovating an old Saturn dealership in Sudbury as their new bus terminal (leaving the decrepit former A&W terminal that Greyhound still uses) and buying a new ferry for between Moosonee and Moose Factory.

The manner it was done, by teleconference from Sudbury (not the HQ in North Bay) also stunk. Interesting that while Sudbury itself is a Liberal seat (and has several bus trips a day), three other ridings are held by NDP (Timmins-James Bay, Timiskaming-Cochrane and Nickel Belt) while ONTC is headquarted in a riding lost to the Conservatives.

I'm doing the whole round trip in early May.
 
rbt said:
300,000 fewer trips in 2002 than 2009 but higher revenues. Ticket prices have definitely gone down and expenses continue to climb. I can see why the feds feel the need to do something, though I personally feel shaving an hour off Corridor trips would fix Via operating subsidies for a while.
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It will be interesting to see what the 2012 figures will be like for the Corridor. We have the same gas price spike that we had back in 2008, plus they've added new trains to the Corridor without adding any new equipment (I wonder if they hired more staff for those trains?).
 
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