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Ontario Northland/Northern Ontario Transportation

For those who might be interested, there is a very detailed and comprehensive history of the evolution of rail freight services in northern Ontario - lines, operators, abandonments, locations of double track / co-production (directional flow of CP / CN on each other's lines), and so on, that may be found in the following background paper prepared by IBI (first item listed in the search results):

 
Northern Light said:
I think this is key.

Most of us here at UT and in this thread in particular, believe there should be more service by VIA and a larger funding envelope.

We believe, as a group, in varying degrees, that done properly, this can reduce emissions from cars, provide greater mobility to those that can't choose driving, and provide a more comfortable and quicker trip time than cars along most routes.

However, we must balance that by acknowledging that there is unlikely to be a deluge of new funds, that service without the proper investment may be unreliable or not time competitive w/the car, and that will ultimately see another rounds of cuts and little if any benefit to show for a short-lived revival/enhancement of services.

Making sure bus service is in place, where practical, is not only a wise way to allocate dollars in the short term, but allows a thoughtful business case to be established for reactivating rail, where demand may warrant.

I'm not familiar w/every corridor across the country; but if we were to exclude currently mandated remote services and examine where there is likely a convincing market, that one could serve and build out from, I expect the most compelling cases for investment would likely be The Corridor, followed by Edmonton-Calgary; after that, I think there might be a solid case for a service linking some or all of the major centres in New Brunswick, and on to Halifax.

To come back to Northern Ontario, the compelling case will be Near North to Toronto; and then areas in the N/W feeding Thunder Bay.

But to get there you have to rebuild a seamless, integrated service network and the bulk of that must come by bus in the near term.

The case to be built around the higher (potential) traffic routes in Northern Ontario is one that will require sizable infrastructure investment to drive down trip times and avoid any conflicts w/freight.

I don't wonder whether it wasn't an unfortunate oversight w/the extension of 400 not to set aside a room for a rail ROW that could become exclusive passenger track getting you (ultimately) from Sudbury to Toronto (via Barrie).

Alas, that ship has sailed.
Click to expand...

Fredericton, the largest city in NB has no rail lines.

If we don't use them, we will use them.


You know when and why the Win-Tbay-SSM-Sud-Tor would work?
First, we have something called winter. It is a marvelous time where highways can be closed for hours if not day on end due to the white stuff or the idiots who cannot drive in it without looking for a ditch or another car.
Then, there is the students who want a cheap way to get somewhere. Bus is cheapest, but having rail means they likely would take it. All 3 of those cities in Northern Ontario have universities and colleges that many students move to go to.

And of course, tourism. I'd like to just hop on a train and go somewhere for the weekend. can't do that here. So, I guess I have no choice but to drive.
 
micheal_can said:
Fredericton, the largest city in NB has no rail lines.

If we don't use them, we will use them.


You know when and why the Win-Tbay-SSM-Sud-Tor would work?
First, we have something called winter. It is a marvelous time where highways can be closed for hours if not day on end due to the white stuff or the idiots who cannot drive in it without looking for a ditch or another car.
Then, there is the students who want a cheap way to get somewhere. Bus is cheapest, but having rail means they likely would take it. All 3 of those cities in Northern Ontario have universities and colleges that many students move to go to.

And of course, tourism. I'd like to just hop on a train and go somewhere for the weekend. can't do that here. So, I guess I have no choice but to drive.
Click to expand...
Fredericton did had rail at one time, but got torn up since most CN traffic goes though Moncton to get to Halifax and St John.

If NA was like Europe for train travel, there would a lot more lines back in service that used to be around. In a few place, I would use air as travel time is too long between points if I every do that trip I was on.

Seeing ridership for Amtrak at some major cities on our May trip, real poor and why trains are only every other day. Then, major RR don't go out their way to help cut travel time that cause riders to drive or fly these days.

Even been cheap for a few doesn't help others or the bottom line.
 
drum118 said:
Fredericton did had rail at one time, but got torn up since most CN traffic goes though Moncton to get to Halifax and St John.

If NA was like Europe for train travel, there would a lot more lines back in service that used to be around. In a few place, I would use air as travel time is too long between points if I every do that trip I was on.

Seeing ridership for Amtrak at some major cities on our May trip, real poor and why trains are only every other day. Then, major RR don't go out their way to help cut travel time that cause riders to drive or fly these days.

Even been cheap for a few doesn't help others or the bottom line.
Click to expand...

Well, either use it or loose it. There is a pretty good Chance the HCR and OVR will disappear sooner than we'd like. Our roads are government funded, yet they operate at a loss. Why not rail?
 
micheal_can said:
Fredericton, the largest city in NB has no rail lines.
Click to expand...

It's the third largest and is barely even a city. Really more of a large town. The extended metro area barely breaks 100k in population.. Central Fredricton is probably half that. It's like complaining that Owen Sound doesn't have a rail link.
 
innsertnamehere said:
It's the third largest and is barely even a city. Really more of a large town. The extended metro area barely breaks 100k in population.. Central Fredricton is probably half that. It's like complaining that Owen Sound doesn't have a rail link.
Click to expand...
Owen Sound? Owen Sound is only 21k, and the Owen Sound CA (census agglomeration) is only 32k, compared to 105k for the Fredriction CA. Not sure that's the best comparison.

Also while Fredricton doesn't have rail through downtown anymore, the CN line passes through the north-end of the CA 45-km to the north, and Irving's New Brunswick Southern Railway passes only 35 km south of town (Fredriction Junction!).
 
micheal_can said:
Fredericton, the largest city in NB has no rail lines.

If we don't use them, we will use them.


You know when and why the Win-Tbay-SSM-Sud-Tor would work?
First, we have something called winter. It is a marvelous time where highways can be closed for hours if not day on end due to the white stuff or the idiots who cannot drive in it without looking for a ditch or another car.
Then, there is the students who want a cheap way to get somewhere. Bus is cheapest, but having rail means they likely would take it. All 3 of those cities in Northern Ontario have universities and colleges that many students move to go to.
Click to expand...
Okay, so how many days (or should I say: hours?) a year are the roads blocked by snow? It is generally accepted that VIA serves three mandates (near-commercial intercity rail, a transcontinental service and services to remote communities without year-round road access). Until 2015, the federal government considered (Hearst-)Franz-SSM to be serving "communities without year-round road access", but it no longer does so. "If you don't use it, you loose it" is a correct observation, but it also works the other way: if you want a higher-quality transportation offering, you have to use the existing transportation offerings as intensively as possible to demonstrate that the demand warrants increased and improved service. That's why if you want to be served by passenger rail, you should start by using the existing services as much as possible and just over half a year after Greyhound's departure out of Canada west of Sudbury, Kasper and Ontario Northland jointly create a travel chain which can bring you from Winnipeg to Toronto in 3 days and with 5 transfers (4 if you use the train rather than the bus between White River and Sudbury), if you insisted on neither driving nor taking the plane (or "The Canadian", which would of course be my preferred choice):
190802

Compiled from: timetables provided by Kasper, Ontario Northland and VIA Rail.

And of course, tourism. I'd like to just hop on a train and go somewhere for the weekend. can't do that here. So, I guess I have no choice but to drive.
Click to expand...
Good for you, but as long as the bus doesn't become crowded (even after increasing frequencies), there will never be a publicly-funded passenger rail service like the one you are envisioning...

micheal_can said:
Well, either use it or loose it. There is a pretty good Chance the HCR and OVR will disappear sooner than we'd like. Our roads are government funded, yet they operate at a loss. Why not rail?
Click to expand...
I'm not necessarily defending this logic, but road is considered the essential infrastructure which allows 24/24 hours and 365/365 days a year access to virtually every community and rail is only considered a substitute, not a complement, except for the few really remote rail lines (e.g. Sept-Iles - Schefferville, Cochrane - Moosonee, The Pas - Pukatawagan / Churchill). Also, the public willingness to pay higher taxes for improved public transport options is much lower here in North America than in Europe, where a service like you are describing would be considered the minimum...

innsertnamehere said:
It's the third largest and is barely even a city. Really more of a large town. The extended metro area barely breaks 100k in population.. Central Fredricton is probably half that. It's like complaining that Owen Sound doesn't have a rail link.
Click to expand...
nfitz said:
Owen Sound? Owen Sound is only 21k, and the Owen Sound CA (census agglomeration) is only 32k, compared to 105k for the Fredriction CA. Not sure that's the best comparison.
Click to expand...
The better comparisons are Peterborough (CMA: 122k), Thunder Bay (CMA: 122k), Lethbridge (CMA: 117k), Nanaimo (CA: 104k), Red Deer (CA: 100k) or Cape Breton (CA: 99k), none of which has any passenger rail left...
 
Urban Sky said:
Okay, so how many days (or should I say: hours?) a year are the roads blocked by snow? It is generally accepted that VIA serves three mandates (near-commercial intercity rail, a transcontinental service and services to remote communities without year-round road access). Until 2015, the federal government considered (Hearst-)Franz-SSM to be serving "communities without year-round road access", but it no longer does so. "If you don't use it, you loose it" is a correct observation, but it also works the other way: if you want a higher-quality transportation offering, you have to use the existing transportation offerings as intensively as possible to demonstrate that the demand warrants increased and improved service. That's why if you want to be served by passenger rail, you should start by using the existing services as much as possible and just over half a year after Greyhound's departure out of Canada west of Sudbury, Kasper and Ontario Northland jointly create a travel chain which can bring you from Winnipeg to Toronto in 3 days and with 5 transfers (4 if you use the train rather than the bus between White River and Sudbury), if you insisted on neither driving nor taking the plane (or "The Canadian", which would of course be my preferred choice):
View attachment 190802
Compiled from: timetables provided by Kasper, Ontario Northland and VIA Rail.


Good for you, but as long as the bus doesn't become crowded (even after increasing frequencies), there will never be a publicly-funded passenger rail service like the one you are envisioning...


I'm not necessarily defending this logic, but road is considered the essential infrastructure which allows 24/24 hours and 365/365 days a year access to virtually every community and rail is only considered a substitute, not a complement, except for the few really remote rail lines (e.g. Sept-Iles - Schefferville, Cochrane - Moosonee, The Pas - Pukatawagan / Churchill). Also, the public willingness to pay higher taxes for improved public transport options is much lower here in North America than in Europe, where a service like you are describing would be considered the minimum...



The better comparisons are Peterborough (CMA: 122k), Thunder Bay (CMA: 122k), Lethbridge (CMA: 117k), Nanaimo (CA: 104k), Red Deer (CA: 100k) or Cape Breton (CA: 99k), none of which has any passenger rail left...
Click to expand...

Cape Breton is the only real comparison as the central urbanized portion is significantly smaller than the metro population suggests. Fredricton has a metro of 100k but it mainly comes from exurban villages and estate subdivisions. Plus it’s hundreds of kilometres from a major city. Population of 100k or not it doesn’t need a proper rail link.
 
Urban Sky said:
The better comparisons are Peterborough (CMA: 122k), Thunder Bay (CMA: 122k), Lethbridge (CMA: 117k), Nanaimo (CA: 104k), Red Deer (CA: 100k) or Cape Breton (CA: 99k), none of which has any passenger rail left...
Click to expand...
The case being made was Fredriction had no freight left. All those examples still have freight as far as I know (including Port Hawkesbury in Cape Breton - which is rather an odd CA compared to the others).
 
nfitz said:
Given that he said that it would be fulfilled along with every other PC promise, and that Doug Ford has already broken many promises and told so many lies since elected ... then that doesn't make me think this is particularly likely.
Click to expand...
Agreed. A big ticket promise is usually more easily fulfilled when you're a senior minister - especially so if you have Finance. While some sort of fig leaf might be offered as the price of Vic going quietly and not doing a Randy Hillier on it, I think the good people of North Bay and environs got played.
 
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