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Ontario Northland/Northern Ontario Transportation

Bordercollie said:
When the contract ends can't they just give it to ONR? The province is the regulatory authority right?
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The right-of-way is owned by Canadian Pacific. Huron Central operate it under a lease agreement. Private companies tend not to simply give away their assets. Any new operator would have to reach some legal agreement with CP.

micheal_can said:
We have seen what someone with experience can do - Nothing. Maybe the lack of experience and working with ONR will work well.

Wrong. All railways are federal jurisdiction. ONR is an owner and operator of a line. Transport Canada is the regulator.
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Not quite correct. The ONR is not federally regulated. It operates into Quebec through its ownership of the Nipissing Central Railway charter on that subdivision.

The part that I am unclear about - and hopefully one of the RR pros can help with - is the regulation of railway operations. Obviously, CP is a federally-regulated road, but they lease operations on their property to HCR. Neither HCR or G&W and listed as either provincially or federally regulated roads. Does CP allow HCR to operate under its charter or are operating authority and regulatory charter something different (I say this not researching the Railway Safety Act)? Provided permission is granted by CP to use their property, can Milman - or me - fire up a locomotive and conduct business without a certificate or something from somebody? Seems odd if so. If some sort of 'operating certificate' is required, does Milman have one? If not, how long and how many hoops to get one? What would be the incentive for ONR, which is actually in the business, to give that over to somebody else? From ONR's perspective, if they are approved to expand into that territory, what's in it for them to sub-contract it out?
 
micheal_can said:
Wrong. All railways are federal jurisdiction. ONR is an owner and operator of a line. Transport Canada is the regulator.
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Complete BS, as usual! There are of course provincially regulated railroads in a confederation like Canada...
Under the Canadian Environmental Protection Act, Environment Canada sets regulations for dealing with spills on federally regulated railway rights-of-way.

Provinces have jurisdiction for provincially regulated railways. Provinces are also responsible for their municipalities through various regulatory instruments that govern planning and development, emergency services, and environmental protection.
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micheal_can said:
I'll bet most residents along the former route are on board with it returning. It really boils down to whether the PCs are on board with it too.
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If this can come back, then there's no reason a similar rail service can't be reinstated from Barrie to Collingwood.
 
Towered said:
If this can come back, then there's no reason a similar rail service can't be reinstated from Barrie to Collingwood.
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Differences being Toronto-North Bay is an in-service rail line that would need little in the way of infrastructure spending; primarily station re-activations. The Barrie-C'Wood line is out of service west of Utopia, was in very poor condition when it was operating, has had a lot of crossings severed and ends in a stub in a field out of town when Poplar Side Rd. was re-graded. That and no in-place operator and, as far as I know, no ridership analysis.
 
Crazy thought....

Let's say the Northlander is reinstated, and runs every day. That would be great.

Now, let's say the HCR is taken over by ONR. How likely would a SSM-Sudbury-North Bay-Toronto passneger train be? I'd have them leave/arrive Toronto 6 hours apart so that they don't meet each other between Toronto and North Bay.
 
micheal_can said:
Crazy thought....

Let's say the Northlander is reinstated, and runs every day. That would be great.

Now, let's say the HCR is taken over by ONR. How likely would a SSM-Sudbury-North Bay-Toronto passneger train be? I'd have them leave/arrive Toronto 6 hours apart so that they don't meet each other between Toronto and North Bay.
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Extend that to Thunder Bay. It's the only city of significance in the extreme northern part of Ontario and you can't get there by train. It's bizarre.
 
Towered said:
Extend that to Thunder Bay. It's the only city of significance in the extreme northern part of Ontario and you can't get there by train. It's bizarre.
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If we are going to do that, I'd say extend it to Winnipeg along the CP line.
 
micheal_can said:
Crazy thought....

Let's say the Northlander is reinstated, and runs every day. That would be great.

Now, let's say the HCR is taken over by ONR. How likely would a SSM-Sudbury-North Bay-Toronto passneger train be? I'd have them leave/arrive Toronto 6 hours apart so that they don't meet each other between Toronto and North Bay.
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Zero. There's a small chance of the Northlander coming back. But a new train via Sudbury? The OVR and HCR are low traffic short line freight routes that will need major upgrades and access to CP's mainline through Sudbury and its busy freight spur to Copper Cliff (beyond that, once the mine and refinery traffic ends, is HCR territory).

Extending that to Thunder Bay and Winnipeg? Via SSM? That's a fun fantasy as it adds several hours and many more miles to the more direct Sudbury-White River-Thunder Bay mainline.
 
micheal_can said:
If we are going to do that, I'd say extend it to Winnipeg along the CP line.
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I don't know all the background why VIA left CP, but if they weren't a willing host then, I wonder why they would be now. It's mostly about potential ridership to make any passenger route viable, absent subsidy. Admittedly there is a tourist component (I'd be one) but it needs to pay the bills year-round. It would be interesting to know to air passenger stats between TBay and Toronto (normal times, of course) or even Tbay and Wpg. Would a rail link preclude the bus routes they just added or would it be expected that both be maintained. Deep pockets we have.
 
Towered said:
I just assumed that one can take a train from Toronto to Winnipeg - it's not available??
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Normally, 'The Canadian' would serve that connection.

Its not very frequent (2-3x per week), even normally, its rather pokey; but it is there.

But its currently not running.

I don't think Toronto-Winnipeg is a particularly viable destination pair mind you; even if you got the frequency up to daily, its just not a remotely competitive trip time w/flying; and there's no path under which it will be either.

I'm a fan of shorter destination pairs, where demand warrants, and its practical to offer reasonable speed and frequency.

Thunder Bay-Winnipeg might make sense.

Sudbury to Thunder Bay might make sense

Toronto - Sudbury might make sense.

Toronto-Winnipeg is really pretty peripheral in terms of demand; its very hard to keep trip times reliable over that distance on shared track. So I expect that destination pair to really be served incidentally again in the future, as it has in the recent past.
 
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