Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

[Team Me]

I think the tendency is to oppose railway alignments for the same reason that people oppose hydro right-of-way alignments (it puts the service where the people aren't), but in this one case it makes perfect sense since the railway is such an ugly scar running right through our core.

We also happen to be at a VERY unique moment in our city's development where most of our downtown construction and growth is converging EXACTLY where that railway line runs. Queen East, Portlands, Distillery, Cityplace, Wellington Place/King West, Liberty Village, Parkdale...these areas are all going through massive changes and would absolutely flourish with the addition of a new subway. If anything, we can finally connect the waterfront to the rest of the city.

As for running the subway a long King or Queen, it would turn too many stations into the kind mess that Yonge/Bloor is in. For example, if people have to get off at Union, transfer onto the subway, take it one or two stops and then transfer to another subway, these stations (King/St. Andrew or Queen/Osgoode) will need to be expanded. It will be so much work and each station will likely cost along the lines of what people are projecting for Yonge/Bloor. Why not just work these improvements into the current Union redevelopment?

 

[b13]

just to let everyone know i wrote an e-mail to Mr.Thompson last night saying :

To the staff of Councillor Thompson and Mr. Thompson himself I must say that with new information this week of a new subway the Downtown Relief Line I have finally put faith in the city and its councillors for making smart decisions and decisions desperately needed. Please Mr. Thompson fight for this line! It needs to be constructed as soon as possible, I don't think many people understand that subway service in Toronto is dismissal and needs to be greatly improved. It is embarrassing knowing that other comparably big cities around the world have better subway access that serves the city but especially its downtown core. I truly don't understand why the only way to leave the CBD is to go north crammed like sardines. THIS IS CANADA FOR HEAVENS SAKES!!! Toronto is a world class city and a big city at that and deserves this new subway line. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE MR. Thompson I have put my faith in you to fight for this line, it can be done especially with these uncertain times and upper levels of governments handing out infrastructure funding, there must be a way to convince Mr. McGuinty that this line is desperately needed. TORONTO CANNOT WAIT! I and the rest of the city are praying and hoping that the Toronto councillors can put aside their bickering and show the city and its residents that things can be done and that we deserve better, please fight for this line and FIGHT NOW!

and he replied with this:

Thank you for your email - please check out this morning's national post. please email me your contact info we're setting a group to help push this issue - would you like to particiate?
Looking forward to hearing from you.
Ihor D. Wons
Exec. Assistant to
Councillor Michael Thompson
416. 397. 9274

I think that if the city really pushes this hard that we might actually get this built.

 

[nfitz]

Why are you so determined to make up false arguments about infeasibility? I don't understand what you could possibly be trying to accomplish.

You say these things that are blatantly wrong. You pick apart statements like there is no room along the railway alignment by trying to point out there is room for 3-block lengths - which while true, is irrelevent.

The railway alignment is clearly out of play ... I have no idea why you are discussing it seriously.

 

[CDL.TO]

Whatever. I pointed out that it was still available for the 3.5km that the 1980s plan proposed the DRL could utilize. The engineers said it was feasible back then, and there have been no real changes to the circumstances since then. There is nothing "clear" about it being out of play.

We'll just have to wait and see what engineers have to say and not a couple people bickering on an internet forum.

 

[Kitsune]

I wouldnt mind seeing it run under Front upto union, and then continue further west eithier in the railway corridor or along Bremner and Fort York. That alignment would put within even better reach of City Place, and all the Condos and apartments on Queens Quay. It would also allow for a better hookup with the Rogers Center.

 

[nfitz]

The engineers said it was feasible back then, and there have been no real changes to the circumstances since then.

No changes? a) new track installed from about Cherry east (to Scarborough). b) new railway yard. c) plans for new GO station. d) increased recognition of regional rail. It's been a quarter-century - everything has changed.

We'll just have to wait and see what engineers have to say and not a couple people bickering on an internet forum.

Like engineers are gods or something?

Besides, the passenger numbers suggest that King makes more sense; particularly as much of the Union traffic is coming off/on GO, and wouldn't switch to the DRL at Union. The concept here is to optimize the system, to maximize the load being pulled off the Danforth line; the decision should be made based on what the model indicates for loadings under various scenarios ... which is exactly why this whole kettle of worms has been opened (which is I think a good thing).

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Besides, the passenger numbers suggest that King makes more sense; particularly as much of the Union traffic is coming off/on GO, and wouldn't switch to the DRL at Union. The concept here is to optimize the system, to maximize the load being pulled off the Danforth line; the decision should be made based on what the model indicates for loadings under various scenarios ... which is exactly why this whole kettle of worms has been opened (which is I think a good thing).

Those are passenger numbers for the system as it exists now, though. If we're only concerned with the set of existing subway riders transferring to the DRL to get to destinations within a few blocks of King & Bay, then King is not a bad option. But we're concerned with the city as a whole and looking at the future...by not running through Union you're not doing as much for places like the Ex or CityPlace or the all the new waterfront developments. King is only two blocks from Union. Also, if the subway runs anywhere north of Union there probably won't ever be any incentive to improve the other east/west lines downtown.

 

[jamesbow]

To address the issue of congestion in the rail corridor and digging beneath the PATH network, the 1985 proposal of the Downtown Relief Line suggested coming into the downtown core via Front and Wellington streets. Glancing at the PATH map, I think this is the best option.

We don't need to stop right under Union. Instead, we could offer connections to King and St. Andrews stations. At Yonge Street, the King platforms extend south to Matilda, which is a very short distance from Wellington. The Yonge/Wellington station could start from Yonge Street and extend towards Bay, with exits near the King/Bay intersection, and perhaps a long walkway towards Union.

The Yonge/Wellington intersection is surprisingly clear of underground tunnels from the PATH network. Similar conditions exist at Wellington/University, although the tunnel to St. Andrew station would be longer. A tunnel might also be possible to the west end of Union near York. So, what you could end up with is a connected five-station hub right in the middle of the downtown.

West from St. Andrew, you could angle the line south to Front Street, with a stop at Spadina to cover City Place.

The other benefit of using either Front/Wellington or Richmond/Adelaide is that construction could take place without disrupting the Queen and King streetcars which, while likely to be replaced or reduced by the DRL, would still need to be carrying passengers while the DRL was under construction.

...James

 

[unimaginative2]

No changes? a) new track installed from about Cherry east (to Scarborough).

Except that the DRL leaves the rail corridor just east of Cherry.

b) new railway yard.

The railway yard was already there. It was just converted for use by GO. It used to be a freight yard.

c) plans for new GO station.

All the better to co-locate the two.

d) increased recognition of regional rail.

The TTR is an enormously wide corridor. They're station approach tracks. Unless we widen Union Station, an impossibility unless you demolish the ACC and the new office towers now under construction, you cannot possibly need additional approach tracks.

The Front/Wellington alignment was the alternative to the recommended option of the Front/Rail Corridor route, largely because of its significantly higher cost.

I don't think anybody would support eliminating the Queen or King streetcars after the DRL is built. If anything, they should be better able to move people on local trips around downtown while leaving the longer-distance trips to the subway.

Your idea is certainly a reasonable one, though.

 

[Whoaccio]

I don't think anybody would support eliminating the Queen or King streetcars after the DRL is built. If anything, they should be better able to move people on local trips around downtown while leaving the longer-distance trips to the subway.

I dunno, if (as nfitz claims) a rail corridor alignment through the core is impossible, running something along Richmond or Adelaide and replacing the Queen & King cars (or at least their central segments) may not be such a bad idea. It has always struck me as odd that those two lines have below average cost recovery serving the densest and most transit friendly part of Toronto.

EDIT: I remember hearing somewhere on Metronauts that a adding another transfer station to Union (TTC) would be nigh impossible nowadays. Is this true?

 

[W. K. Lis]

The Spadina Station on the 1 Yonge-University-Spadina line has a transfer-free connection with the Spadina Station on the 2 Bloor-Danforth line. At one time it had a moving sidewalk (150m long), but was removed in 2004 because it kept breaking down.
If the Downtown Relief Line uses transfer-free walkways to connect with whatever existing station, let us hope that they would be shorter, have distractions such as shops or boutiques, and next-train information displays.

 

[Dan416]

I wish I had a Toronto City Councillor to email with my support for the DRL. Unfortunately living in Mississauga I don't get a say on this.

As for Metrolinx, well if they want the Richmond Hill extension, Toronto needs to force them to fun the DRL first. It only makes sense. If Metrolinx is forward-thinking they would agree. So what if the plan has been set? You can change it if it doesn't make sense. And any moron can understand it makes no sense to expand Yonge-Bloor if you're going to build a DRL anyway.

 

[MisterF]

To address the issue of congestion in the rail corridor and digging beneath the PATH network, the 1985 proposal of the Downtown Relief Line suggested coming into the downtown core via Front and Wellington streets. Glancing at the PATH map, I think this is the best option.

We don't need to stop right under Union. Instead, we could offer connections to King and St. Andrews stations. At Yonge Street, the King platforms extend south to Matilda, which is a very short distance from Wellington. The Yonge/Wellington station could start from Yonge Street and extend towards Bay, with exits near the King/Bay intersection, and perhaps a long walkway towards Union.

The Yonge/Wellington intersection is surprisingly clear of underground tunnels from the PATH network. Similar conditions exist at Wellington/University, although the tunnel to St. Andrew station would be longer. A tunnel might also be possible to the west end of Union near York. So, what you could end up with is a connected five-station hub right in the middle of the downtown.

West from St. Andrew, you could angle the line south to Front Street, with a stop at Spadina to cover City Place.

The other benefit of using either Front/Wellington or Richmond/Adelaide is that construction could take place without disrupting the Queen and King streetcars which, while likely to be replaced or reduced by the DRL, would still need to be carrying passengers while the DRL was under construction.

...James

James, that's pretty much what I was describing earlier. While the transfers would be longer, it's not any longer than Spadina station, and traffic would be dispersed through five stations instead of one. The Tube in London has quite a few transfer stations with longer tunnels than that. It might look something like this:

 

[jamesbow]

I'm fine with either the Downtown subway or the Downtown Loop. Failing that, how about the Southern Crosstown line? Or the Southern Cross?

 

[Darren B]

Response from Mike Sullivan at the Weston Community Coalition

I saw the article. Unfortunately we didn’t have time to discuss the issue, but the group by e-mail is supportive generally, so long as the pricing doesn’t cause harm to our idea to electrify the ARL.

Mike

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Mike,
Just following up on how your meeting went on Monday? The news is coming out today about the DRL. Council was surprisingly interested in the DRL during yesterday's vote. They have asked Metrolinx to place it in their 15 year plan from were it previously was in their 25 year plan. So far its only the eastern half of the DRL from Pape Station to Queen Station, but news outlets are running with the concept and generating interest in a complete line west on Queen then to Dufferin station.

Darren