Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

[tsm1072]

I don't know a ton about expropriation, but I have to imagine the general-purpose commercial/industrial buildings must be easier to deal with than the specialized industrial located north of the Access Storage. Those facilities are likely heavily customized, making finding a new location and relocating difficult. I think if they are going to try and relocate the Mosque, they will have to pay enough for a newer, nicer Mosque to be built nearby.

 

[turini2]

Going by the plans for the Yonge North extension, and the fact that the OL is being VE’d - dollars to doughnuts it won’t be designed for overbuild.

Conversely, Metrolinx under Ford has been massively pushing for "Transit Orientated Communities" (quite rightly imo). The idea behind the TOC program is to make money for both government + developer by designing the new stations in the 4 priority projects for overbuild and TOD development. Sure it costs you a little bit more to build a station or yard, but you make significantly more money in the long run. The Ontario line design standards back this up, with glossy conceptual images and talk of overbuild.

GO is also doing similar, getting developers to pay for new stations (GO Woodbine)

The TOC approach provides real opportunities to build vibrant, higher density, mixed-use communities that are connected to transit stations.

An example of this would be the Crossrail stations in London (which generated approx £500m to part fund the project), or the Broadway Skytrain extension in Vancouver - stations designed and built to have a future office or apartment building built on top of them.

 

[allengeorge]

@turini2 Let me clarify: I agree with you that overbuild has been done successfully and should be done. I question whether it will be, here.

But, I’m ok to wait and see. I can’t predict the future.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Conversely, Metrolinx under Ford has been massively pushing for "Transit Orientated Communities" (quite rightly imo). The idea behind the TOC program is to make money for both government + developer by designing the new stations in the 4 priority projects for overbuild and TOD development. Sure it costs you a little bit more to build a station or yard, but you make significantly more money in the long run. The Ontario line design standards back this up, with glossy conceptual images and talk of overbuild.
View attachment 311557
GO is also doing similar, getting developers to pay for new stations (GO Woodbine)


An example of this would be the Crossrail stations in London (which generated approx £500m to part fund the project), or the Broadway Skytrain extension in Vancouver - stations designed and built to have a future office or apartment building built on top of them.

The "problem" with this approach is that it is one thing to do so for green/brownfields; another to basically take out a core of an existing community and replace it with market housing (because that's how you make money under these sort of schemes). The increased density is still desirable - but I guess how palatable it is will be is dependent on what the proponent do to ameliorate the community impact (and that will run contrary to cost control goals).

Make no mistake though - this sort of thing is typically amplified by the lack of power in the community.

AoD

 

[TheTigerMaster]

The "problem" with this approach is that it is one thing to do so for green/brownfields; another to basically take out a core of an existing community and basically replace it with market housing (because that's how you make money under these sort of schemes).

In other words: gentrification

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

In other words: gentrification

Generally yes - but this is a more specific case of government using its' powers to drive it (however unintended, it is baked into the design simply by the goals of cost recovery/profit).

AoD

 

[H4F33Z]

I don't know a ton about expropriation, but I have to imagine the general-purpose commercial/industrial buildings must be easier to deal with than the specialized industrial located north of the Access Storage. Those facilities are likely heavily customized, making finding a new location and relocating difficult. I think if they are going to try and relocate the Mosque, they will have to pay enough for a newer, nicer Mosque to be built nearby.

Just for clarification, That's exactly what they did! Here's some context.

From 2012-2015, the mosque owners were scouting for another location for the mosque. They believed that the smaller mosque (4 Thorncliffe) won't be able to fulfill the needs of the community and surroundings for the current and future generations, so with fundraising and support, they were able to purchase the property on 20 Overlea Blvd for 11.3 million dollars in 2018. This was previously a cosmetic factory, and in 2020, they had it up with safety protocols and running with the community/sport facilities still under development. From their website:

EXPANSION PROJECT: In Feb. 2018, we purchased a new property in the Thorncliffe Park area (20 Overlea Blvd.) located very close to our current location, which will serve as an expansion to our current Prayer facility, Madrasah & School and will also serve as a new community Center for the growing Muslim population in the Thorncliffe Park, Flemington and St. Dennis area. This facility will also be providing youth in our community with a much needed sporting facility.

The community has outgrown its current facility and currently run programs 7 days a week, day and evening, however we still have an increasing demand for space, in the existing facility for congregants, School, Madrasah and basic Community needs.

So this is not just a mosque, it will become a significant hub in the Thorncliffe area, actually, it already is. You know how sad it is to fundraise, negotiate and just barely purchase the property, and construct the mosque only to have it be all gone. Metrolinx must work with the community to find a solution that can work with us. This ain't no riverdale controversy, it's a gut punch to our vulnerable and important community and we deserve better.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Just go on Overlea. Why make this so hard?

 

[tsm1072]

Just for clarification, That's exactly what they did! Here's some context.

View attachment 311606
From 2012-2015, the mosque owners were scouting for another location for the mosque. They believed that the smaller mosque (4 Thorncliffe) won't be able to fulfill the needs of the community and surroundings for the current and future generations, so with fundraising and support, they were able to purchase the property on 20 Overlea Blvd for 11.3 million dollars in 2018. This was previously a cosmetic factory, and in 2020, they had it up with safety protocols and running with the community/sport facilities still under development. From their website:

EXPANSION PROJECT: In Feb. 2018, we purchased a new property in the Thorncliffe Park area (20 Overlea Blvd.) located very close to our current location, which will serve as an expansion to our current Prayer facility, Madrasah & School and will also serve as a new community Center for the growing Muslim population in the Thorncliffe Park, Flemington and St. Dennis area. This facility will also be providing youth in our community with a much needed sporting facility.

The community has outgrown its current facility and currently run programs 7 days a week, day and evening, however we still have an increasing demand for space, in the existing facility for congregants, School, Madrasah and basic Community needs.

So this is not just a mosque, it will become a significant hub in the Thorncliffe area, actually, it already is. You know how sad it is to fundraise, negotiate and just barely purchase the property, and construct the mosque only to have it be all gone. Metrolinx must work with the community to find a solution that can work with us. This ain't no riverdale controversy, it's a gut punch to our vulnerable and important community and we deserve better.

Thanks for the info. I feel like they should be able to avoid the mosque by moving the station slightly northeast and making the MSF longer. You can't develop on both sides of the station in this case, but it will be like Kipling or Mount Dennis, where the station marks the edge of the neighboorhood.

 

[toronto647]

Just for clarification, That's exactly what they did! Here's some context.

View attachment 311606
From 2012-2015, the mosque owners were scouting for another location for the mosque. They believed that the smaller mosque (4 Thorncliffe) won't be able to fulfill the needs of the community and surroundings for the current and future generations, so with fundraising and support, they were able to purchase the property on 20 Overlea Blvd for 11.3 million dollars in 2018. This was previously a cosmetic factory, and in 2020, they had it up with safety protocols and running with the community/sport facilities still under development. From their website:

EXPANSION PROJECT: In Feb. 2018, we purchased a new property in the Thorncliffe Park area (20 Overlea Blvd.) located very close to our current location, which will serve as an expansion to our current Prayer facility, Madrasah & School and will also serve as a new community Center for the growing Muslim population in the Thorncliffe Park, Flemington and St. Dennis area. This facility will also be providing youth in our community with a much needed sporting facility.

The community has outgrown its current facility and currently run programs 7 days a week, day and evening, however we still have an increasing demand for space, in the existing facility for congregants, School, Madrasah and basic Community needs.

So this is not just a mosque, it will become a significant hub in the Thorncliffe area, actually, it already is. You know how sad it is to fundraise, negotiate and just barely purchase the property, and construct the mosque only to have it be all gone. Metrolinx must work with the community to find a solution that can work with us. This ain't no riverdale controversy, it's a gut punch to our vulnerable and important community and we deserve better.

Imagine this happened at a Church or Synagogue. Toronto Star, Toronto Sun, CBC, CP24 would have already reported on this and have it as Breaking News on the front page or on TV at the beginning of the hour.

 

[syn]

I think this is the part where someone accuses them of NIMBY whining, suggesting they should've expected this when they chose to live/work where they live, it's near a rail corridor, not big deal, etc.

 

[EnviroTO]

Metrolinx does often make community concessions without changing their core design idea, but just do it in the worst way possible from a PR management perspective. Look at Davenport Diamond, and what they are doing along the rail corridor in Riverdale now. Locals are still pissed, but metrolinx does make some major concessions often.

It will be interesting to see if they do make major concessions under this government. The Metrolinx that had the rail corridor dive below ground in Weston to appease the community, which had a public art budget, and which created a plan for a beautiful Davenport Diamond public realm may not work the same way today. As the plans for new works that weren't already defined by 2019 become defined, we are going to see if priorities and the organization is run the same way, whether it has a corporate culture that survives government transitions, and in fact is operating at arms length, or determines "value" based on the government of the day.

 

[nfitz]

I think this is the part where someone accuses them of NIMBY whining, suggesting they should've expected this when they chose to live/work where they live, it's near a rail corridor, not big deal, etc.

I don't see how that goes well, given they said they moved it already off Overlea to avoid the driveway for a big European church.

(of course, I don't actually think that's the reason they moved it. They just said that because it looks like they care - and it's going to be fun watching that one come back to them.

 

[toronto647]

I don't see how that goes well, given they said they moved it already off Overlea to avoid the driveway for a big white church.

(of course, I don't actually think that's the reason they moved it. They just said that because it looks like they care - and it's going to be fun watching that one come back to back them.

Now they are expropriating 2-3 mosques lol... where is the equity in that. I rather have a busy driveway rather than demolish 2-3 mosques.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Putting aside the obvious and valid conners around the mosques, putting the MSF in the centre of a low income community is really, really bad optics for MX. Further MX and the Province have burned so many bridges that constructive engagement on this issue is going to be very difficult.

This has all the hallmarks of a small issue with potential to derail the whole project. I hope MX knows that they're doing here. Bullying this community is not in their interest.