Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

sche said:
Huhhh, lets see..

Now, how many people have been ignored... like maybe a few hundred Leslieville NIMBYs max?

Now, how many people benefit... lets see..
- pretty much anyone in Flemingdon Park, Thorncliffe Park
- literally anyone who uses the OL in Leslieville now that they no longer need to climb like a 10 storey building to get to a train
- pretty much any transit user in like a third of North York and Scarborough
- literally anyone who commutes on the Yonge or Danforth subway
- literally every taxpayer, who saves money thanks to the govt not wasting several billion to please a couple hundred NIMBYs
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Why yes i do love climbing 10 floors, how could you tell?

Thank goodness they scraped that god awful relief line plan.
 
sche said:
Huhhh, lets see..

Now, how many people have been ignored... like maybe a few hundred Leslieville NIMBYs max?

Now, how many people benefit... lets see..
- pretty much anyone in Flemingdon Park, Thorncliffe Park
- literally anyone who uses the OL in Leslieville now that they no longer need to climb like a 10 storey building to get to a train
- pretty much any transit user in like a third of North York and Scarborough
- literally anyone who commutes on the Yonge or Danforth subway
- literally every taxpayer, who saves money thanks to the govt not wasting several billion to please a couple hundred NIMBYs
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This.

You can't please everyone on everything. They need to look at the overall good. Nimbyers fail to realise that hence their constant me me me me, nobody but me mentality
 
CaskoChan said:
Why yes i do love climbing 10 floors, how could you tell?

Thank goodness they scraped that god awful relief line plan.
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While this is true I do think it is worth pointing out the irony here in that while the DRL stations being deep is bad, apparently the stop at Lawrence on the SSE is perfectly fine even though it will be the deepest in the entire network. As well the transfer at Science Centre is now significantly worse then it would have been had the DRL made it to Eglinton at some point.
 
sche said:
Huhhh, lets see..

Now, how many people have been ignored... like maybe a few hundred Leslieville NIMBYs max?

Now, how many people benefit... lets see..
- pretty much anyone in Flemingdon Park, Thorncliffe Park
- literally anyone who uses the OL in Leslieville now that they no longer need to climb like a 10 storey building to get to a train
- pretty much any transit user in like a third of North York and Scarborough
- literally anyone who commutes on the Yonge or Danforth subway
- literally every taxpayer, who saves money thanks to the govt not wasting several billion to please a couple hundred NIMBYs
Click to expand...

Even though I despise NIMBYS, this is slipping a bit into Utilitarianism, which is not how our system of democracy in Canada works, and should never work. The best outcome for the most number of people should never infringe on the rights of even one man, is something central to the rights and freedoms of our country.

However, that being said, it must be made true that something is being infringed upon, and in the case of Leslieville, I don't think having a nice transit line through your neighborhood stands up to that challenge.
 
Wh
robmausser said:
Even though I despise NIMBYS, this is slipping a bit into Utilitarianism, which is not how our system of democracy in Canada works, and should never work. The best outcome for the most number of people should never infringe on the rights of even one man, is something central to the rights and freedoms of our country.

However, that being said, it must be made true that something is being infringed upon, and in the case of Leslieville, I don't think having a nice transit line through your neighborhood stands up to that challenge.
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Whatlt rights are being trampled on? The right to comfort? The right to not look at a train track? The right to not have infrastructure built outside their property which they have no jurisdiction on??

People who pull the charter card for these situations rarely know what they are talking about and are just trying to whitewash their self interests as an entitlement and right. How about the rights of 1000s of other people whom you are severely holding back because of your own?

These people are guaranteed the right of mobility to move out anywhere else as they please if they don't like it in leslieville. Now that is an actual charter right.
 
In respect of the Leslieville section, I remain largely indifferent to the 'Nimby' concerns' and far more worried about the severe constraints on rail corridor capacity.

There is insufficient capacity for all GO trains to serve East Harbour; and VIA is going to be up against it to get room for anything more than hourly service.

I'm also concerned about the O/L capacity overall. I went over this awhile back in the thread; but the assumptions being used do not hold up to scrutiny in my judgement.

Finally, I have to tell you, that many in Toronto's Forestry unit and the TRCA are not happy w/the proposal for the above ground section in Thorncliffe following the Walmsley Brook corridor (Gatineau Corridor) and the valley crossing. They have considerable concerns over ecological damage.

The issue for me is not fundamentally overground/underground; its capacity, rail-corridor (non-Ontario Line) capacity; ecological impact; and adverse impact on riders where some station locations are now sub-optimal.
 
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KhalilHeron said:
While also providing service to fewer residents. The Ontario Line capacity may not be as high as the DRL but it is certainly more than enough to serve its main purpose. My guess is that the increased amount of residents the Ontario line serves, and the exposure it will give to Toronto residents of viable modes other than traditional subways will be well worth slightly less (but still sufficient) capacity. Also, I certainly think new transit should overrule any new development or nimbys without valid arguments but I do think Metrolinx could be a little nicer and more respectful about it.
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That's because it was part of a larger plan.

As has been mentioned, there's no reason the government couldn't have fast tracked the existing DRL South plan and immediately began work on the northern extension. Compare the DRL South + North to the OL if you want an accurate comparison.

By tossing it out the window and starting over they've only delayed the process with a line that won't have the capacity it needs.
 
Northern Light said:
In respect of the Leslieville section, I remain largely indifferent to the 'Nimby' concerns' and far more worried about the severe constraints on rail corridor capacity.

There is insufficient capacity for all GO trains to serve East Harbour; and VIA is going to be up against it to get room for anything more than hourly service.

I'm also concerned about the O/L capacity overall. I went over this awhile back in the thread; but the assumptions being used do not hold up to scrutiny in my judgement.

Finally, I have to tell you, that many in Toronto's Forestry unit and the TRCA are not happy w/the proposal for the above ground section in Thorncliffe following the Walmsley Brook corridor (Gatineau Corridor) and the valley crossing. They have considerable concerns over ecological damage.

The issue for me is not fundamentally overground/underground; its capacity, rail-corridor (non-Ontario Line) capacity; ecological impact; and adverse impact on riders where some station locations are now sub-optimal.
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Exactly.

Now tell those Forest NIMBYS to get lost! Ontario has plenty of forests already don't they know anything?!
 
syn said:
That's because it was part of a larger plan.

As has been mentioned, there's no reason the government couldn't have fast tracked the existing DRL South plan and immediately began work on the northern extension. Compare the DRL South + North to the OL if you want an accurate comparison.

By tossing it out the window and starting over they've only delayed the process with a line that won't have the capacity it needs.
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There's no reason they couldn't have but honestly, would they have. It takes so long for this city to build transit I doubt they'd approve it until well after the drl starts construction. The DRL also would not have gone west of university for a very long time. Serving all these areas from the beginning is just guaranteeing that they'll eventually get this transit (once construction starts) while for the DRL it was all hypothetical far in the future. Also the OL definitely has enough capacity the trains arent tiny and it runs pretty damn frequently compared to drl.
 
cplchanb said:
Wh

Whatlt rights are being trampled on? The right to comfort? The right to not look at a train track? The right to not have infrastructure built outside their property which they have no jurisdiction on??

People who pull the charter card for these situations rarely know what they are talking about and are just trying to whitewash their self interests as an entitlement and right. How about the rights of 1000s of other people whom you are severely holding back because of your own?

These people are guaranteed the right of mobility to move out anywhere else as they please if they don't like it in leslieville. Now that is an actual charter right.
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Thank you for agreeing and supporting my point that I was making, that no rights of the residents of Leslieville are being trampled on.

However, I take issue with one part, and with the OP I was responding to, and that is that IF someone's rights are being violated, there should never be any amount of justification that its ok because it would benefit a lot of other people. The rights of many do not outweigh the rights of the few. You can't take away someone's rights because it benefits the rights of others. Thats fundamental to how our countries democracy works.

But that being said, in this case I can't think of how a persons rights could ever be considered in violation from a public utility being built in their area, a transit line in this case. In fact it most likely would be seen by the Canadian courts to have the opposite effect.
 
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ARG1 said:
Now now no need to undersell it. Didn't you know that every underground station is the equivalent to a 15 story building?
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It's called 'reasonable accommodation' . All transit projects must legitimately take into account current people who live along the corridor not only during construction but over the long-term. Such things like noise walls and running zero polluting and much quieter electric trains are examples of this. What is not 'reasonable' is when you get a small number of people trying to stop a vital piece of infrastructure that will carry millions every week just so they can live undisturbed made worse by the fact that they CHOOSE to live along a rail corridor to begin with. These people are not being 'reasonable' and are instead trying to negotiate with a gun at their opponents head. Ford should have none of it and be reasonable but demand the project go ahead.
 
KhalilHeron said:
There's no reason they couldn't have but honestly, would they have. It takes so long for this city to build transit I doubt they'd approve it until well after the drl starts construction. The DRL also would not have gone west of university for a very long time. Serving all these areas from the beginning is just guaranteeing that they'll eventually get this transit (once construction starts) while for the DRL it was all hypothetical far in the future. Also the OL definitely has enough capacity the trains arent tiny and it runs pretty damn frequently compared to drl.
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Why?

The whole point of the province taking over transit construction was to fast track things.

No reason they couldn't have done that as originally planned. They could've added a western extension too. Ford said they wanted to build subways and build them faster than anyone else - all they had to do was continue with the plans already created.

There is no defense for the critical shortcomings of this project.
 
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