Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

[rbt]

I really appreciate your positivity. The Ontario line is by no means a perfect project but at least we're moving at a faster pace than the Relief line.

Not quite. TTC was ready to place TBM orders 2 years ago. They would have been well into launch pit excavation by now.

AFAIK the Ontario line is still deciding how big the tunnel should be; it's of the answers the selected vendor will provide in ~24 months (6 months to go through RFQ, 12 months to go through RFP, and 6 months for vendor to submit their 5% design).

This is a good step. Still a good 2 years behind where the Relief line process was and 4 years behind where it would have been if funded. Also, Metrolinx would have finished the Relief Line north EA by now with selected routing to Sheppard (if that made economic sense).

 

[officedweller]

Ontario Line - Detailed Description
The Ontario Line will be delivered in the following three (3) separate procurement contracts:

1. Rolling Stock, Systems, Operations and Maintenance Contract (“RSSOM Contract”, or the “Project”)
2. Southern Civil, Stations and Tunnel Contract (“South Civil Contract”)
3. Northern Civil, Stations and Tunnel Contract (“North Civil Contract”)

All three (3) contracts will be delivered as P3 projects. The RSSOM Contract will be delivered using a Design-Build-Finance-Operate and Maintenance (“DBFOM”) model and will have a direct interface with the South Civil and North Civil Contracts.

RFQ DBFOM - Rolling Stock, Systems, Operations & Maintenance for Ontario Line - 19-205 | MERX

www.merx.com

It makes perfect sense that the North Civil Contract will be proceed through the RFP process later than the RSSOM Contract if that's where the OMSF is located.
That's so the North Civil Contract proponents will have the benefit of knowing some aspects/specifications for the yard design and bridge designs proposed/required by the successful proponent of the RSSOM Contract.

It's a bit odd that the South Civil Contract could proceed concurrently with the RSSOM Contract. It depends on how much of the design and route is determined by the Province, and how much is determined by the sucessful RSSOM Contractor.

It would be more customary for there just to be one big fixed price contract so the successful proponent will be in control of all aspects.

Also note that it's highly likely that the successful proponent for the North Civil Contract will end up being the same as for the South Civil Contract.

It also makes sense that the successful RSSOM Contractor will operate the line since TTC does not have experience operating a true driverless system. TTC will likely take handover of the operations after an extended period of working with the successful proponent. The last thing you want is TTC to take over operations, the union files a complaint, and the line becomes manned.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Wait, since when is this a positive? We still don't know anything about this project, other than the fact that it's probably not going to provide any relief to the areas that need it. When we need another line through downtown to do what the Relief Line is supposed to do, are we going to have any space left to build it?

How is this not going to do what the relief line was going to?

I honestly don't understand the constant criticism here. I honestly feel that a lot of it is "doug ford likes it, therefor it must be bad".

Honestly I think the project as a whole is a breath of fresh air compared to the bloated mess that the Relief Line was. No project is perfect and the OL has issues with potentially hitting maximum capacity several decades down the line, but it addresses a lot of previous issues with the RL line with outsized transfer distances and absurd construction costs.

 

[salsa]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1267925196339642381

 

[Rainforest]

How is this not going to do what the relief line was going to?

I honestly don't understand the constant criticism here. I honestly feel that a lot of it is "doug ford likes it, therefor it must be bad".

No, it's the lack of publicly available details, and some concerns about the constructibility.

If the thing gets built at the end, great. Most of people here will appreciate the added transit capacity into downtown, regardless of Doug Ford's involvement.

 

[urbanyimby]

No, it's the lack of publicly available details, and some concerns about the constructibility.

If the thing gets built at the end, great. Most of people here will appreciate the added transit capacity into downtown, regardless of Doug Ford's involvement.

where did all the publicly available details for the original Relief Line brought us? I personally don't care if it all stayed behind closed curtains and they finished the project by 2027/8. Public consultations, for the most part, is a mechanism to slow down projects.

 

[innsertnamehere]

I would like to see the plans too, but I believe that Metrolinx has a plan. We will see them eventually, Like the relief line for the first little while, there weren't plans. I'm hopeful we will see something public soon.

 

[syn]

I would like to see the plans too, but I believe that Metrolinx has a plan. We will see them eventually, Like the relief line for the first little while, there weren't plans. I'm hopeful we will see something public soon.

This was my thought process on Santa Claus at one point in life.

 

[Streety McCarface]

where did all the publicly available details for the original Relief Line brought us? I personally don't care if it all stayed behind closed curtains and they finished the project by 2027/8. Public consultations, for the most part, is a mechanism to slow down projects.

Obviously, you weren't on this forum during the RL times...there were plenty of detail drawings, site plans, and preliminary documents available to us. You're never going to see all the engineering work involved in a project, but damn, the development was never this hidden.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

How is this not going to do what the relief line was going to?

I honestly don't understand the constant criticism here. I honestly feel that a lot of it is "doug ford likes it, therefor it must be bad".

Honestly I think the project as a whole is a breath of fresh air compared to the bloated mess that the Relief Line was. No project is perfect and the OL has issues with potentially hitting maximum capacity several decades down the line, but it addresses a lot of previous issues with the RL line with outsized transfer distances and absurd construction costs.

You don't think introducing new rolling stock yet again is an issue? the lack of coverage of Parkdale and High Park?

Here's that old "Union relief" Metrolinx proposal I was talking about. Most of us should be familiar with it. I put the giant star at where the new eastern Ontario Line terminal station would be:

View attachment 249193

The intention of this proposal wasn't to relieve Bloor-Yonge or the Yonge Line (although that would be a potential side-effect), but rather to relieve congestion at Union Station. If the portion of the Ontario Line between Gerrard and Eglinton never materializes, this is essentially exactly what we'd end up with. The whole issue with capacity and the size of the trains make perfect sense too, if this is what they plan to build. Connect the dots...

Also, does anyone have a link to the report that this map came from?

Metrolinx still toys with the idea of downtown relief line

It's too early to get overly excited about this, but a report to be presented to the Metrolinx board that outlines strategies to ease future conges...

www.blogto.com

 

[Divas S.]

Last time I checked for profit companies build the vast majority of our infrastructure, including for the TTC . . .

I never made an argument about how the TTC has done it in the past?? I'm just saying if the NDP won next election they would end P3's, it was in their platform from the last election, I just agree that we should stop paying private companies and that why is said it "makes sense".

 

[officedweller]

No, it's the lack of publicly available details, and some concerns about the constructibility.

In other cities, the general public doesn't micromanage rapid transit projects. It's bad enough that politicians try to do so.
I tend to think that that's the cause of delays and costs that have hindered rapid transit expansion in Toronto. You can't please all the people all of the time.
The Canada Line was twice rejected by Metro Vancouver council before being approved on the third try (ie individual municipalities objected on the bais that Richmond was jumping the queue and the City of Vancouver was still objecting to the cost and asking what about surface LRT, until it finally believed its own engineers that on street would not work on Cambie St.

 

[asher__jo]

P

I don't agree, plenty of P3's have been successful and they have their benefits just like any model. The comment I don't really understand is not paying private companies, we do that lots? A private company operates GO (Bombardier) and private companies are building basically all of our transit projects as well. I don't think theres anything inherently wrong with that.

P3's can certainly be successful, but the auditor general found in her reports (I believe 2017, 2018) that government managed projects save money. It's essentially like the government taking out a loan for money they have for the convenience, but you pay interest (in this case profit for private sector involvement).

 

[smallspy]

P

P3's can certainly be successful, but the auditor general found in her reports (I believe 2017, 2018) that government managed projects save money. It's essentially like the government taking out a loan for money they have for the convenience, but you pay interest (in this case profit for private sector involvement).

Governments are able to borrow money for far less than private firms. That's part of the savings.

The other part is that the Government is paying those private companies to take the risk on the project too. That's not cheap.

Dan

 

[bjrkz]

No, it's the lack of publicly available details, and some concerns about the constructibility.

If the thing gets built at the end, great. Most of people here will appreciate the added transit capacity into downtown, regardless of Doug Ford's involvement.

Metrolinx and other teams are working on an incredibly tight deadline for a project of this scale to be completed by 2027. The planning and design work is being undertaken by professionals. If they were constantly releasing information to the public for feedback, the project would go nowhere and it would be impossible to manage. The public's opinion truly matters very little in this case since the project planners and engineers have already looked at thousands of options and calculations for the best routes, intersections for stations, rolling stock technology, etc. The planners really do care about protecting local parks, heritage properties, community centres, etc etc but there is a set route and people will have to accept that some properties will be impacted in exchange for a much needed rapid transit system.