Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

I am trying to figure out what's so special about Sheppard. Line 4 doesn't sound like it's getting extended east any time soon, and Fairview Mall doesn't sound like it's going to be redeveloped at any point soon.

Push it up from Eglinton to Finch. Counter-peak travel to Seneca College will get more people using the line in the counter-peak direction, in a way that Fairview Mall won't.
Sheppard is special because it has a subway line, obviously. An interchange with Line 4 and the future Sheppard LRT maximizes network connectivity in a way that further northern extensions wouldn't. Its status as the biggest transfer node in the area is only going to increase. I really don't see the relevance of Fairview Mall not being redeveloped. This isn't Agincourt Mall we're talking about, Fairview is a major destination. And it's already surrounded by dozens of high rises, with a lot more planned.

That's not to say that further northern extensions are an inherently bad idea, it's just that going past Sheppard gives you diminishing returns when it comes to relieving Line 1. And that's the biggest reason it's being planned in the first place. The OL ever going north of Sheppard will be so far into the future that it's barely worth thinking about.
 
A new transit podcast has launched in Toronto. First guest is Steve Munro discussing the Ontario Line. Steve noted this was recorded pre-covid-19.

 
Ah yes, Nimbys at it again. Was King actually too narrow? I've heard other rationales . . .



I have read the reports, a lot doesn't make sense. Again, if they were not flawed then I'm not sure how it's now possible which is very much seems to be.

I'd also point out a lot of these studies done by the city like the one done for the Eglinton West LRT appear to be designed to produce a certain result (that elevating would seriously hurt ridership for example). They have a lot of very questionable "qualitative measures" in them which aren't usually very solid. I also remember reading Relief Line Reports where complex rationales for certain routing were broken down using a few sizes/ colors of dots and where somehow even if the dots for two routings were identical (talking about dots seems crazy but thats what some some of these reports were showing results as)one routing might be preferred anyways.

Let's not forget that city reports were also used to justify a 3 billion dollar one stop subway line which would just duplicate an existing line which could just have been upgraded, albeit in a way that would be less exciting.

RE Capacity, Vancouver's Skytrain (Expo and Millenium Lines) has a reported max capacity of around 25,000 ppdph right now using 4 car sub 3 meter wide trains.So I am confident the capacities being discussed aren't THAT optimistic.

King Street was the Town of York's "main" street. Lot Street (today's Queen Street) was the northern town limit (like today's Steeles Street) bordering the Township of York. With all that farm fields, of course there would be space for a "subway" along Lot Street (Queen Street).

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From link.
 
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. I have read the reports, a lot doesn't make sense. Again, if they were not flawed then I'm not sure how it's now possible which is very much seems to be.

Okay, but the Prov looked at their own relief lines and they also didn't include running along/above GO lines.
 
RE Capacity, Vancouver's Skytrain (Expo and Millenium Lines) has a reported max capacity of around 25,000 ppdph right now using 4 car sub 3 meter wide trains.So I am confident the capacities being discussed aren't THAT optimistic.
Reported capacities, especially from Bombardier, are never accurate. Even at 40 trains per hour (the highest you're getting now is 30 trains per hour), you'd have to fit 625 people in each train. The Mark III capacity is reported as 532 passengers per train, so realistically, your capacity is 21K PPHPD, and that's the absolute best-case scenario, which will never be possible on a line that's supposed to carry more people than the entirety of the Skytrain network per day.

To vet that 532 passengers number, the dimensions of a Mark III are 2.49 m width and 68.1 m in length, meaning the approximate passenger area available is 169.569, or about 170 m^2. All in all, 3.13 passengers would fit in the train per square meter.

Compare this to a Toronto rocket's reported 1200 passengers in a 139.14 m by 3.124 m train, or 434.67 m^2 train, that's 2.76 passengers per square meter.

So despite the mark III being less space-efficient than the TR, it's expected to carry 13% more passengers.

I'd be very skeptical of the 25K PPHPD number they're giving.
 
Reported capacities, especially from Bombardier, are never accurate. Even at 40 trains per hour (the highest you're getting now is 30 trains per hour), you'd have to fit 625 people in each train. The Mark III capacity is reported as 532 passengers per train, so realistically, your capacity is 21K PPHPD, and that's the absolute best-case scenario, which will never be possible on a line that's supposed to carry more people than the entirety of the Skytrain network per day.

To vet that 532 passengers number, the dimensions of a Mark III are 2.49 m width and 68.1 m in length, meaning the approximate passenger area available is 169.569, or about 170 m^2. All in all, 3.13 passengers would fit in the train per square meter.

Compare this to a Toronto rocket's reported 1200 passengers in a 139.14 m by 3.124 m train, or 434.67 m^2 train, that's 2.76 passengers per square meter.

So despite the mark III being less space-efficient than the TR, it's expected to carry 13% more passengers.

I'd be very skeptical of the 25K PPHPD number they're giving.

Yea, exactly.

If I remember correctly, the “crush load” capacity of the LFLRV is 250 people, which is obviously BS (at least in the context of revenue service - in a perfectly controlled environment I’m sure you could pack that many people in).

Also should be noted that people do not distribute themselves within a vehicle optimally. During rush hour at Bloor-Yonge, the northernmost ends of the Line 1 trains are often packed to capacity, even though the south end of the train has seating capacity to spare. Heck, even on our busses (which appear to be substantially shorter in length than a train), operators have to consistently beg passengers to distribute themselves more optimally throughout the bus.
 
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A new transit podcast has launched in Toronto. First guest is Steve Munro discussing the Ontario Line. Steve noted this was recorded pre-covid-19.


I really wanted to listen to this podcast but the audio is unlistenable. Its a shame. They need better equipment.
 

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