Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Things could obviously be built after Transit City, but it was definitely meant to be the be-all and end-all of transit construction as far as David Miller was concerned. We're talking about a long-term transit plan. It was already Miller's second term, and it would be unrealistic to think he would have won re-election repeatedly. I'm not convinced he would have defeated Rob in 2010. But let's assume an extended Miller mayoralty...

Adam Giambrone said a DRL would not be considered until Transit City was finished in 2018 (as if that date was realistic!). But who is to say they would support the DRL in alternate universe 2018? After all, it was already rejected once as there was no DRL in Transit City, which still boggles the mind.

There was one occasion when council under Miller had a position on the DRL In response to the province's support for the Yonge extension in January, 2009, Miller agreed to have the city pay for a Yonge Environmental Assessment in exchange for Metrolinx moving the DRL from its 25-year plan to its 15-year plan. That was pretty much the extent of his interest in the DRL. So, presuming Miller stayed on longer as mayor, the notion that other projects would have started concurrent with Transit City is far-fetched.

As for Scarborough having their RT replacement, maybe, but why wasn't the LRT included in the first wave of projects? That should have been a no-brainer. The RT replacement and the DRL were, by far, the city's two highest transit priorities, and Miller addressed neither. If he had, transit would be far less contentious today. Instead, he made political choices prioritizing Sheppard and Eglinton.

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As for the current situation, with the Corona crisis it seems likely at least one of Doug's big four (Ontario, Yonge, Scarborough, and EWLRT) will be chopped, or more likely delayed indefinitely. Yonge for me is easily the safest of them all. It has a completed EA, is closest to shovel-ready, and may make Doug more competitive in York Region. Scarborough was Rob's last moment of glory as mayor amid a fog of a gazillion scandals. Can't see Doug pissing on Rob's memory. EWLRT runs through Doug's neighbourhood, and he won't want to risk a future premier building something other than an underground extension. So I'm betting on Ontario. It's the most expensive one by far, needs federal support, and provincial Liberals are apparently lobbying their federal cousins to not fund it unless Ford reverts back to the TTC plan or at least hold off and wait to see if Ford loses in 2022. Not to mention that Doug will likely win zero seats in Ontario Line country.

Coming soon to Yonge: massive crush loads.

Welcome back, it's been a while .

I agree...

Eglinton West is forsure going to happen to fulfill the crosstown vision and Ford lives along it
Scarborough will lose its SRT so they will need something or else ppl will be pissed
Ontario Line is needed to relieve stress that crosstown and finch west lrt will bring to Yonge in couple years (Maybe the western half to to Ontario Place gets chopped)

Only Yonge Line North seems like it make sense to get cancelled

It might get tendered. I don't think there's a chance it can make it to financial close by March 2022 though. It's 12 months to qualify bidding teams (required because you pay them about $50M each to place a DBF bid) and 18 months after that to get bids in, evaluate them, and select one; and that's with no distractions.

I think Ontario Line has a chance simply because the next government will likely go with it. The business case isn't terrible.

They can promise to use TR rockets on the ontario line. Make it a real subway line. In it's current state, it's more likely to be canceled then Yonge North.

Ontario Line to Eglinton will be a must now that the public is aware of it. If they cut the extension to eglinton there will be severe backlash and yonge line will be even more full considering crosstown will have no drl.

But the RL North proposal itself was flawed too. If going up Don Mills, midblock stations should be incorporated as well (Barber Greene, Bond and Graydon Hall). Lack of stations is a very serious deficit to have considering the once-in-a-generation aspect of building these rapid transit lines.

More stations = slower ride for most sadly.

 

[WislaHD]

But the RL North proposal itself was flawed too. If going up Don Mills, midblock stations should be incorporated as well (Barber Greene, Bond and Graydon Hall). Lack of stations is a very serious deficit to have considering the once-in-a-generation aspect of building these rapid transit lines.

Only Barber Greene would make much sense, but only if attached with significant rezoning of the area.

 

[44 North]

Not building a line to use TR's does not mean it doesn't have the capacity in mind, based on the OL's specs it may even match the traditional lines with ATC in terms of capacity.

I also would pose the question, if the RLS was being planned so carefully why were measures not taken to go at grade like the OL to reduce the cost and hence make the project an easier sell to the Province? Why was Queen chosen over King despite King quite likely offering better ridership? I've looked through plenty of documentation and particularly the stuff talking about different routes basically just shows different sized circles for different attributes of each route with little in the way of assumptions made or other hard numbers. It all feels very much like ECLRT West ridership studies did . . .

Why not read the RL reports so that you can answer these questions. Going at grade was looked at and deemed not feasible in the areas south of Bloor. And guess what, Metrolinx also looked at it and deemed it not feasible. Then post-election somehow it is.

With regards to rolling stock, I think not using TRs is fine. But there's no question the capacity numbers touted are unbelievably high. For a 100m train, using <3m width cars, 25k peak hour per direction seems reasonable. Albeit at the high end. But they have something like 10k above that. And they don't even know the trains yet.

But the RL North proposal itself was flawed too. If going up Don Mills, midblock stations should be incorporated as well (Barber Greene, Bond and Graydon Hall). Lack of stations is a very serious deficit to have considering the once-in-a-generation aspect of building these rapid transit lines.

Did we get to the point to deem it flawed? Last I remember there was a variety of alignments going from Leslie to Vic Park. But then nothing came of it. I was actually keen to see the results because the Vic Park alignment was so unconventional but potentially interesting.

 

[north-of-anything]

I think a Don Mills alignment would work best, just to allow for Victoria Park and/or Warden routes in the future, and also because of the underlooked ridership potential between Steeles and Finch. Seriously, a Seneca College station would be amazing for encouraging counter-peak travel.

 

[GenerationW]

The COVID crisis could be a huge turning point for telecommuting. Could a spike in working from home post-COVID reduce the crowding of Lines 1 and 2, easing the urgency of the OL?

On another forum I frequent, someone went even further and said this will result in the end of huge transit projects.

I'm placing my bets on yonge north being chopped

That would make the most sense, but I think York Region now has too much political influence for that to happen. They got Spadina extended beyond Steeles despite Toronto's opposition, and surprised everyone by getting Yonge North on the agenda. It's pretty obvious what's going to happen if/when the Relief Line and Bloor-Danforth get close to York Region.

.

Whether he stayed on or not, I find it hard to believe Miller would see Transit City as the end of transit expansion in Toronto.

I agree that the DRL should've been the first priority. It should've been the first priority many decades ago.

The DRL was part of the city's transit plans and was scheduled to be finished by 2030 as part of the province's regional transit plan in 2007.

The 7-stop Scarborough LRT was included in the first wave of projects. It was already planned and funded. When Ford cancelled Transit City they'd already spent tens of millions on it.

Transit City would've delivered major transit improvements to priority neighbourhoods. If they'd gone ahead, we'd no longer have to worry about the Scarborough Subway, for example, as they'd already have a new LRT line up and running. We could move on to other priorities, like the DRL (and possibly re-evaluating projects like the Don Mills LRT, which was slated to being construction in 2020).

Instead, we've been spinning our wheels since Miller left office.

I meant the end of transit expansion as far as Miller's role as mayor, not until the end of time.

Miller submitted Sheppard and Eglinton first for EAs and made sure they were the first lines scheduled to begin construction, 2009 and 2011 respectively. Scarborough's EA was still in progress when Rob won and was scheduled to begin construction in 2015. Miller could have put Scarborough first, but he was obsessed with building something on Eglinton because of what Mike Harris did in 1995, and cutting off subway expansion because Miller's hated rival Mel Lastman championed the Sheppard subway. Transit revenge trumped transit planning. Ironically, Mel was originally opposed to Sheppard. He was also the first Toronto politician in the 1980s to revive the DRL concept, and came to support Sheppard because downtown councillors, dominated by the NDP, rejected the DRL time and again from 1985 right through the 90s. So it was only natural that Miller would adopt the same negative stance towards the DRL over his seven years as mayor.

After Network 2011 essentially died in the 90s, the DRL wasn't officially prioritized by the city until council took away Rob Ford's powers in 2012. The DRL on a 25 or 15-year provincial plan is nice on paper, but meaningless if the mayor (or local councillors in the case of Lastman) has no interest in it. Go figure that political opposites Miller and Ford saw eye-to-eye on what would be the city's most transformative transit project since the original Yonge subway. Turns out planning transit out of spite isn't much better than Rob Ford planning transit out of a drunken stupor.

King was too narrow for the station boxes, that is why they choose Queen.

Is Queen really that much wider?

The cynic in me says they chose Queen so that City Hall would get its own stop.

Welcome back, it's been a while .

Thanks!

 

[syn]

I meant the end of transit expansion as far as Miller's role as mayor, not until the end of time.

Miller submitted Sheppard and Eglinton first for EAs and made sure they were the first lines scheduled to begin construction, 2009 and 2011 respectively. Scarborough's EA was still in progress when Rob won and was scheduled to begin construction in 2015. Miller could have put Scarborough first, but he was obsessed with building something on Eglinton because of what Mike Harris did in 1995, and cutting off subway expansion because Miller's hated rival Mel Lastman championed the Sheppard subway. Transit revenge trumped transit planning. Ironically, Mel was originally opposed to Sheppard. He was also the first Toronto politician in the 1980s to revive the DRL concept, and came to support Sheppard because downtown councillors, dominated by the NDP, rejected the DRL time and again from 1985 right through the 90s. So it was only natural that Miller would adopt the same negative stance towards the DRL over his seven years as mayor.

After Network 2011 essentially died in the 90s, the DRL wasn't officially prioritized by the city until council took away Rob Ford's powers in 2012. The DRL on a 25 or 15-year provincial plan is nice on paper, but meaningless if the mayor (or local councillors in the case of Lastman) has no interest in it. Go figure that political opposites Miller and Ford saw eye-to-eye on what would be the city's most transformative transit project since the original Yonge subway. Turns out planning transit out of spite isn't much better than Rob Ford planning transit out of a drunken stupor.

An interesting take.

Miller was only elected as councilor in 1994, so it seems unlikely he wanted to build the Eglinton LRT out of revenge lol. It made sense as it was the 'spine' of the expansion, spanning most of the city. The Sheppard East extension provided plenty of coverage in Scarborough.

The Scarborough LRT was scheduled to begin construction in 2012 for completion in 2016 but was pushed back to 2015 after the province delayed funding. No conspiracy there.

If anything, Scarborough was easily the number one priority in the first slate of projects.

 

[The REAL]

On another forum I frequent, someone went even further and said this will result in the end of huge transit projects.

That would make the most sense, but I think York Region now has too much political influence for that to happen. They got Spadina extended beyond Steeles despite Toronto's opposition, and surprised everyone by getting Yonge North on the agenda. It's pretty obvious what's going to happen if/when the Relief Line and Bloor-Danforth get close to York Region.

.I meant the end of transit expansion as far as Miller's role as mayor, not until the end of time.

Miller submitted Sheppard and Eglinton first for EAs and made sure they were the first lines scheduled to begin construction, 2009 and 2011 respectively. Scarborough's EA was still in progress when Rob won and was scheduled to begin construction in 2015. Miller could have put Scarborough first, but he was obsessed with building something on Eglinton because of what Mike Harris did in 1995, and cutting off subway expansion because Miller's hated rival Mel Lastman championed the Sheppard subway. Transit revenge trumped transit planning. Ironically, Mel was originally opposed to Sheppard. He was also the first Toronto politician in the 1980s to revive the DRL concept, and came to support Sheppard because downtown councillors, dominated by the NDP, rejected the DRL time and again from 1985 right through the 90s. So it was only natural that Miller would adopt the same negative stance towards the DRL over his seven years as mayor.

After Network 2011 essentially died in the 90s, the DRL wasn't officially prioritized by the city until council took away Rob Ford's powers in 2012. The DRL on a 25 or 15-year provincial plan is nice on paper, but meaningless if the mayor (or local councillors in the case of Lastman) has no interest in it. Go figure that political opposites Miller and Ford saw eye-to-eye on what would be the city's most transformative transit project since the original Yonge subway. Turns out planning transit out of spite isn't much better than Rob Ford planning transit out of a drunken stupor.

Is Queen really that much wider?

The cynic in me says they chose Queen so that City Hall would get its own stop.

Thanks!

The original DRL plan on Queen had a City Hall stop.. but it made no sense since the Queen stop on Line 1 is less then 100 meters away.

 

[Leo_Chan]

The original DRL plan on Queen had a City Hall stop.. but it made no sense since the Queen stop on Line 1 is less then 100 meters away.

IMO, the Relief Line South plan was took the worst possible of the 4 realistic options for the City Hall stations.
1. 2 interchange stations centre aligned + +
2. 2 interchange stations outer aligned --| |--
3. 2 interchange stations inner aligned |-- --|
4. 1 interchange station at Bay | -- |
The option chosen gave little improvement to underground access and was skewed to improve the lives of those at City Hall by letting them have two stations. The outer alignment would have expanded underground access west of University and east of Yonge. The center alignment would have been best for fast transfers. And the single interchange station would have saved money.

 

[canarob]

That would make the most sense, but I think York Region now has too much political influence for that to happen. They got Spadina extended beyond Steeles despite Toronto's opposition, and surprised everyone by getting Yonge North on the agenda. It's pretty obvious what's going to happen if/when the Relief Line and Bloor-Danforth get close to York Region.

The major issue with extending transit into York Region seems to be about capacity, so if the OL is built in such a way that capacity issues are lessened, then why wouldn't we want to extend the OL into York, especially since it could go straight into the 404/407 employment area (car centric, sure, but last mile buses and other improvements possible) and would provide connections to the Steeles BRT, 407 Transit Way and VIVA Purple? We can't make the 905 less auto dependent without better transit. York Region needs better local bus service first, but I don't see why more subway extensions shouldn't happen in the future. I would agree that a Western extension of the OL and other projects should happen first, but this would hardly be a white elephant.

In the distant future, I could even see Line 2 being extended north from McCowan and Steeles, but that would be decades away. It's certainly not needed now, and would require many zoning changes to make any sense.

 

[sche]

The major issue with extending transit into York Region seems to be about capacity, so if the OL is built in such a way that capacity issues are lessened, then why wouldn't we want to extend the OL into York, especially since it could go straight into the 404/407 employment area (car centric, sure, but last mile buses and other improvements possible) and would provide connections to the Steeles BRT, 407 Transit Way and VIVA Purple? We can't make the 905 less auto dependent without better transit. York Region needs better local bus service first, but I don't see why more subway extensions shouldn't happen in the future. I would agree that a Western extension of the OL and other projects should happen first, but this would hardly be a white elephant.

I usually picture the OL turning east at Finch or Sheppard and then running up the 404 until Steeles, then turning east again and heading north on Warden to end up at Downtown Markham (and probably continuing east to Unionville GO). Pretty much the entire extension would be elevated or at grade and it also hits the employment areas along Steeles and Gordon Baker Rd.
This does have some disadvantages in that a part of it overlaps with the Steeles BRT though

 

[micheal_can]

I am trying to figure out why anyone is talking about north of Sheppard. Yes, it will go further, but likely not within the next 20 years.

 

[north-of-anything]

I am trying to figure out why anyone is talking about north of Sheppard. Yes, it will go further, but likely not within the next 20 years.

I am trying to figure out what's so special about Sheppard. Line 4 doesn't sound like it's getting extended east any time soon, and Fairview Mall doesn't sound like it's going to be redeveloped at any point soon.

Push it up from Eglinton to Finch. Counter-peak travel to Seneca College will get more people using the line in the counter-peak direction, in a way that Fairview Mall won't.

 

[micheal_can]

I am trying to figure out what's so special about Sheppard. Line 4 doesn't sound like it's getting extended east any time soon, and Fairview Mall doesn't sound like it's going to be redeveloped at any point soon.

Push it up from Eglinton to Finch. Counter-peak travel to Seneca College will get more people using the line in the counter-peak direction, in a way that Fairview Mall won't.

That is just a couple of stations north of Sheppard. That does make sense. However, talking about York Region is more fantasy than much else.

 

[north-of-anything]

That is just a couple of stations north of Sheppard. That does make sense. However, talking about York Region is more fantasy than much else.

Right, it would also be infringing on VIVA territory and potentially reducing their revenue. Extending north to Finch will merely reduce the distance needed for VIVA Green buses to connect to Toronto transit.

 

[micheal_can]

Right, it would also be infringing on VIVA territory and potentially reducing their revenue. Extending north to Finch will merely reduce the distance needed for VIVA Green buses to connect to Toronto transit.

You mean like how Line 1 already goes north of Steeles?